Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
NAD- Bergantino Forte D
- Thread starter MachMike
- Start date
Are you experiencing the same color and noise through the headphone circuit? I really need this to be clean as I am the primary song writer. The feature of using the headphones with a line input to jam with was a big selling point that I could use when touring in hotels etc.
I have to say, The head sounds really very good. It appears the issue is isolated to the headphone circuit only. The drive channel is the secret sauce IMO. Its not distortion but adds a subtle edge which is very cool. I have a few other heads arriving this weekend so I can try them all to see what works with all my basses. This is a really good head so far from a sonic perspective.
Yes. Jim and my dealer were both very helpful but it ended with an understanding from Bergantino that the headphone out noise is inherent due to the design and was not meant to be a high quality low noise out. The design flub in an otherwise killer amp.
And it may be important to note I have sensitive and discerning ears and use high end headphones. But I did try 4 sets of headphones with impedances from the 30s to 300.
I do have a Trickfish Bullhead and a GK legacy 800 arriving tomorrow. I will be able to play each of them side by side to really see which suits my playing style and ears. Like I said that Drive or tube simulator on the Forte D is quite amazing. I expect the Trick fish to sound better at zeros, and be quite a bit more tweakable, which may make using different basses easier. The GK is going to be the colored sound I used for years which might not be what I want. I've been really looking for something that works / compliments the Sandberg VM.
You're not messing around trying things! I should also mention the noise issue was due to it being tied into the high power Forte HP power amp. If you're having an issue with the regular Forte I would check with Bergantino as that shouldn't be an issue.
I talked with Jim on Friday. He sent a new head, i'm going to give it a go tomorrow. The access and support alone has been great. Probably a bum capacitor, probably a one in a million issue. I'm super stoked to try them all back to back.
Any updates on the hiss issue with the new head? Also, I'd be curious to hear how you liked the sound through the cabs? Thanks!
Yes! I received a new head and it still had the white noise. Jim was awesome to deal with. VERY helpful. I absolutely loved the sound of the Bergantino head though with both active and passive basses. So it was frustrating that the noise existed.
I was also trying out 4 other heads. To see what works best with my newer basses etc. Now, I have to say of all the heads I currently am demoing, they all have some really great features and areas where they are excellent.
However: I am beginning to think the noise floor/white noise is a Class D thing or possibly a form factor (closeness of circuits) issue. I use conditioned power on a dedicated circuit in the studio, and I also used the heads through something I would see on stage.
To be fair to all manufacturers involved. I will post the white noise recording. (these are at gain +3 and Master below 12:00 all flat EQ etc), so really at not even stage volume.
I am going to fully document my experiences with them in a different thread.
I was also trying out 4 other heads. To see what works best with my newer basses etc. Now, I have to say of all the heads I currently am demoing, they all have some really great features and areas where they are excellent.
However: I am beginning to think the noise floor/white noise is a Class D thing or possibly a form factor (closeness of circuits) issue. I use conditioned power on a dedicated circuit in the studio, and I also used the heads through something I would see on stage.
To be fair to all manufacturers involved. I will post the white noise recording. (these are at gain +3 and Master below 12:00 all flat EQ etc), so really at not even stage volume.
I am going to fully document my experiences with them in a different thread.
- GKLegacy 800 = White noise at unacceptable level. Headphone circuit sounded good. Noise grows as you use the drive features and EQ. (this isn't a good recreation of the 800RB which is what i used to have and was stolen). Ergonomics are bad. Connections are bad. I was initially OK, as I used it over the course of a day I became more and more disappointed.
- Bergantino Forte D = White Noise at unacceptable level, compressed sound limited to headphone circuit.(Really good head). I loved the sound. The Drive Tube emulator is F*%ing amazing. Ergonomics could be significantly better (looks like the HP and B|Amp are better). Connections are just OK. Dialing in a good sound is very easy with multiple basses. Signal good for live, noise = bad for mic'd recording.
- Trickfish Bull head .5k = No white noise. Dead quiet. Headphone circuit clean. (This is a really good head) I love this head as well. Ergonomics are A++ excellent. Dialing in sound takes some time. Because the EQ options are amazing. Which is why i'm going to try the 1K.
- Quilter 802 = Very little white noise. Acceptable level. Headphone circuit clean, PITA connections. Egonomics are abysmally bad.
- Trickfish 1k - TBD this weekend -
- DarkGlass 900 Alpha Omega - TBD this weekend. No good clean signal demos out there. I am skeptical about this head vs a pedal.
- Aguilar Tone Hammer 700 - TBD next week. I have no clue what to expect.
Last edited:
Thanks for the detailed update! Please let us now here where to find the other thread! Much appreciated!
Jim Bergantino
Commercial User
Comparing all these amp's white noise with the gain at 3 and the Master near or around 12:00 may not be the most scientific or accurate comparison. All amps have different gain structures and volume tapers. So one amp's 12:00 may be another amps 3:00 or 10:00. With regards to the forte' D, if you set the input gain up properly as explained in the manual, 12:00 on the Master would be about 75% of the amps output which should be pretty loud on most stages, assuming of course you're using the appropriate size speaker for the job and not trying to beat a 110 to within an inch of its life! And if you need much more than that you would most likely be going thru FOH and have plenty of PA support.
Secondly, what do you mean by connectors are "Just OK"? We use Neutrik Speakons, which are the industry standard, as I'm sure most if not all of the other amps you mentioned do too. Our 1/4" connectors are also of high quality and between these and the Speakons we have never had to replace a single connector on any of our amps over the last 6 years, so a zero failure rate. I'm sure that must count for something. Maybe you could elaborate or explain how we could make our connectors even "better".
As for your "ergonomics could be significantly better" comment, these are all 4-8lb micro amps. Never thought ergonomics would even be part of the discussion. Maybe I should have mentioned in our owner's manual that you should "Bend at the knees" when picking up this 6.5lb. behemoth! And for the record, our B|AMP's ergonomics and connectors are the exact same, so you may want to take this into consideration if you're thinking about the B|AMP, which based on our discussions you were.
And finally, I appreciate your voice mail the other day saying our forte' D sounded better by a "mile" than the other 15 amps you compared it to. You've been so focused on white noise on this thread I was starting to wonder if you even played a single note thru the amp! ;-}
Last edited:
If I just cared about a headphone amp I'd buy a dedicated one. Easy to find a good one super cheap, and a great one for more. Or, maybe a Helix/Kemper for effects with many output choices: phones, XLRs, etc. Note that 800-1200 watt power amps are not included with these applications.
Main purpose/focus of Berg heads is not phones out. To me, it's an obscure convenience feature that I will never use, seek, or miss.
My favorite headphone setup is my laptop, bass, audio interface, and DAW (Ableton, Logic, plugins) of choice. This setup is also excellent as a mixer for iTunes, Apple Music, Spotify, SoundCloud, YouTube, Zoom, whatever. This is a great working and practice setup, effectively using/marrying technology in many forms, sonically invisible to those around me.
Main purpose/focus of Berg heads is not phones out. To me, it's an obscure convenience feature that I will never use, seek, or miss.
My favorite headphone setup is my laptop, bass, audio interface, and DAW (Ableton, Logic, plugins) of choice. This setup is also excellent as a mixer for iTunes, Apple Music, Spotify, SoundCloud, YouTube, Zoom, whatever. This is a great working and practice setup, effectively using/marrying technology in many forms, sonically invisible to those around me.
Last edited:
For me it's actually an important feature and was a big part of why I chose a Berg head. Practice when family is around, traveling and taking it and a pair of headphones etc.
Mine is so noisy it's unusable.
As far as a headphone amp - it will just amplify what's there. It won't help with noise or sound quality.
Jim Bergantino
Commercial User
Ryan email your phone number and I will contact your with a possible solution you can try to solve your issue with the headphones.
Hey Jim!
I know these amps to you are like my songs to me, they are your life's work. I appreciate the work and the options companies like yours provide to break free of the same old 'milk-toast' sounds that have ruled the market for years but not pushing the industry forward. Many just seem to be keeping people locked into the past (looking at you MESA). Your amps are still the best of everything I have tried for both passive and active basses by a mile to date. Also work very well with a colored bass like the NS2, and extremely well with Sandberg, Fender P/Js and Yamaha with very little adjustment required. I am going to purchase the HP model, as it has a few more options to influence tone and switch between multiple settings. Your Drive (tube emulation?) path is fantastic and its like having a specialty pedal built in with a perfect level of whatever Mojo you created. Very, very well done.
I am going to give a feedback cycle here though as I think its important to provide it, direct positive and feedback is important.
Headphones:
Headphones, I use the headphones to write when I'm traveling and working. I won't disturb anyone, its really easy with the AUX in, and I can focus on authoring my part or writing. It was one of the many reasons I gravitated to your amps (Besides the overwhelming praise of the sound). Your amp provides everything I need to accomplish that. But it is without the killer sound of your head (I was hoping for that to flow through this feature and could have been an unrealistic expectation). The circuit could be better, its a bit noisy and is colored (which is what started this thread). But, you have one, and these options didn't exist in the past. So mission accomplished. It suits my need, but isn't free from needing improvement and should probably match other heads at the same price point at some point in the future.
White Noise/Noise Floor:
I did test the heads at the same gain and volume DB through multiple gain and volume ranges and I recorded each head with a 4x10 cabinet (tested multiple cabs to make sure it wasn't a factor). I settled on a gain setting that would be used to record with a mic (which is where the noise would have any sort 'real world' impact). Your white noise is in-line with the GK, Quilter, Hartke. It increases slightly with volume but doesn't increase in-line with volume gaining. The exception was the Trickfish 5k /1k bullhead which were dead quiet. They both have a larger footprint and were also very very light. So form factor may play a part. I can post these recordings or send them to you if you are interested. They are labeled, and toggle between mute/on and another with a bass tone. To me it just seems to trend as the nature of class D amplification as more have this level noise floor than not. This noise level is fine for stage. I'm used to any noise being generated from the fans on the head, not the head through a cabinet. Recording could mix a direct signal and the mic to mask the noise. I personally like the sound of a mic on a cabinet. the noise level could be improved and something to work on future iterations.
Connections/Ergonomics/Form Factor:
Sorry for being nebulous. You deserve more information, My bad.
Form Factor:
It actually wouldn't hurt for this head to be slightly wider to accommodate all the options it has. Some of which could include dial markers for the EQ section. Mute, Power, headphone, aux input etc. had to be moved to the back and they are smashed into a very small space. Better Examples: I think the Trickfish 5k and 1k nailed the form factor and markings. Darkglass and Hartke have physical EQ sliders with markers. I'd pay an extra 75$ for this on the Forte D to spread some stuff out add some level indicators and it would still be super portable and fit into a backpack.
Nutrix/Speakon 1/4" connectors:
Ergonomics:
The headphone and auxiliary connectors are on the back of the head as well as the power, reaching over and around for those things isn't optimal. Having the headphones and power on the face of the head would be preferable so cables aren't wrapping around. With the very light weight, wrapped cables increase the chances of the heading getting dumped. They are also a bit crowded and seem like more of an after thought.
Power:
A more robust power on/off switch with illumination located on the front would be preferable. It would be less susceptible to being toggled while reaching for headphone/aux connections, no need to fish around for it if its available on the face.
Mute:
A physical switch instead of a button would be nice. Its a little crowded with the other buttons (form factor). But its nicely set into the bezel and in a mostly good location so it won't get pushed by accident so its good for the style chosen.
Dials:
Your dials are very well made, feel high quality have a 12:00 'notch' which is great! The spacing while tight is still a fairly usable distance. Nothing feels cheap. They can be turned in the dark without accidentally counter turning other knobs (the GK was horrible). However they could use range markers. Switching basses happens multiple times per show, a quick way to adjust would be dial markers...which don't exist. A larger dial marker as well as range markers would make this a much more usable EQ for on the fly adjustments in a stage environment. I'm sure your multi-channel heads solve this with a multi-channel pedal. Again..markers would be great for the Forte D version.
Illumination:
The light indicators are not blinding and are an absolute perfect level of illumination. I could see them very well from a significant distance. They also shift colors which is really nice for indicating what mode they are in. I'd like to see a power button with illumination on the front.
Anyway Jim, you really do have a great product, it does sound fantastic and that is where things are the most important. I will be a customer with the HP version. Feel free to disagree and counter anything I mentioned (I can take feedback as well) feedback cycles are like magnifying glasses to perfectionists and can be soul crushing. I think honest discourse is very important.
But in the end know this:
I liked your product the best.
I know these amps to you are like my songs to me, they are your life's work. I appreciate the work and the options companies like yours provide to break free of the same old 'milk-toast' sounds that have ruled the market for years but not pushing the industry forward. Many just seem to be keeping people locked into the past (looking at you MESA). Your amps are still the best of everything I have tried for both passive and active basses by a mile to date. Also work very well with a colored bass like the NS2, and extremely well with Sandberg, Fender P/Js and Yamaha with very little adjustment required. I am going to purchase the HP model, as it has a few more options to influence tone and switch between multiple settings. Your Drive (tube emulation?) path is fantastic and its like having a specialty pedal built in with a perfect level of whatever Mojo you created. Very, very well done.
I am going to give a feedback cycle here though as I think its important to provide it, direct positive and feedback is important.
Headphones:
Headphones, I use the headphones to write when I'm traveling and working. I won't disturb anyone, its really easy with the AUX in, and I can focus on authoring my part or writing. It was one of the many reasons I gravitated to your amps (Besides the overwhelming praise of the sound). Your amp provides everything I need to accomplish that. But it is without the killer sound of your head (I was hoping for that to flow through this feature and could have been an unrealistic expectation). The circuit could be better, its a bit noisy and is colored (which is what started this thread). But, you have one, and these options didn't exist in the past. So mission accomplished. It suits my need, but isn't free from needing improvement and should probably match other heads at the same price point at some point in the future.
White Noise/Noise Floor:
I did test the heads at the same gain and volume DB through multiple gain and volume ranges and I recorded each head with a 4x10 cabinet (tested multiple cabs to make sure it wasn't a factor). I settled on a gain setting that would be used to record with a mic (which is where the noise would have any sort 'real world' impact). Your white noise is in-line with the GK, Quilter, Hartke. It increases slightly with volume but doesn't increase in-line with volume gaining. The exception was the Trickfish 5k /1k bullhead which were dead quiet. They both have a larger footprint and were also very very light. So form factor may play a part. I can post these recordings or send them to you if you are interested. They are labeled, and toggle between mute/on and another with a bass tone. To me it just seems to trend as the nature of class D amplification as more have this level noise floor than not. This noise level is fine for stage. I'm used to any noise being generated from the fans on the head, not the head through a cabinet. Recording could mix a direct signal and the mic to mask the noise. I personally like the sound of a mic on a cabinet. the noise level could be improved and something to work on future iterations.
Connections/Ergonomics/Form Factor:
Sorry for being nebulous. You deserve more information, My bad.
Form Factor:
It actually wouldn't hurt for this head to be slightly wider to accommodate all the options it has. Some of which could include dial markers for the EQ section. Mute, Power, headphone, aux input etc. had to be moved to the back and they are smashed into a very small space. Better Examples: I think the Trickfish 5k and 1k nailed the form factor and markings. Darkglass and Hartke have physical EQ sliders with markers. I'd pay an extra 75$ for this on the Forte D to spread some stuff out add some level indicators and it would still be super portable and fit into a backpack.
Nutrix/Speakon 1/4" connectors:
- Direct = Perfect Located on the back side where they should be. Works great.
- 1/4" = Perfect build quality. Work as anyone would expect. Not always in the best location.
- Speakon (Just OK) = Yours are the current NL4 which was really nice (unlike the GK NL2 which are increasingly harder to find). They are located where they should be. However, they aren't 1/4" TS multi connectors as well. If they were multi-input would be in line with nearly all other amps at the same price point. GK fell short here as well.
Ergonomics:
The headphone and auxiliary connectors are on the back of the head as well as the power, reaching over and around for those things isn't optimal. Having the headphones and power on the face of the head would be preferable so cables aren't wrapping around. With the very light weight, wrapped cables increase the chances of the heading getting dumped. They are also a bit crowded and seem like more of an after thought.
Power:
A more robust power on/off switch with illumination located on the front would be preferable. It would be less susceptible to being toggled while reaching for headphone/aux connections, no need to fish around for it if its available on the face.
Mute:
A physical switch instead of a button would be nice. Its a little crowded with the other buttons (form factor). But its nicely set into the bezel and in a mostly good location so it won't get pushed by accident so its good for the style chosen.
Dials:
Your dials are very well made, feel high quality have a 12:00 'notch' which is great! The spacing while tight is still a fairly usable distance. Nothing feels cheap. They can be turned in the dark without accidentally counter turning other knobs (the GK was horrible). However they could use range markers. Switching basses happens multiple times per show, a quick way to adjust would be dial markers...which don't exist. A larger dial marker as well as range markers would make this a much more usable EQ for on the fly adjustments in a stage environment. I'm sure your multi-channel heads solve this with a multi-channel pedal. Again..markers would be great for the Forte D version.
Illumination:
The light indicators are not blinding and are an absolute perfect level of illumination. I could see them very well from a significant distance. They also shift colors which is really nice for indicating what mode they are in. I'd like to see a power button with illumination on the front.
Anyway Jim, you really do have a great product, it does sound fantastic and that is where things are the most important. I will be a customer with the HP version. Feel free to disagree and counter anything I mentioned (I can take feedback as well) feedback cycles are like magnifying glasses to perfectionists and can be soul crushing. I think honest discourse is very important.
But in the end know this:
I liked your product the best.
Forte HP is a great choice and I am sure you will be very happy with it. Mine is simply stunning and very intuitive to use. To be fair, I could say the same about my Mesa 800+ but I definitely appreciate the higher output of the hp which is why it gets most gigging use (plus the firmware updates put it in another league). Much of this thread has been centred around the headphone output which for most of us is simply a non issue, so a little hard for us to relate. I have never tried any of my amps with headphones, however you have explained why it is important to you so fair enough. As for your other points, well I suppose you could find something to improve in every amp if you look hard enough. Must be hard to be a manufacturer and try to find that magical middle ground, you can't please everyone all the time but you try to please most of your clientele most of the time...... I think firms like Bergantino and my other fave, Mesa, achieve this brilliantly.
The concerns in this thread seem to have a consumer audio orientation that I am not used to in pro sound reinforcement applications and use.
Last edited:
I've used the headphones thingy in my b/amp many times, not so much lately as my living situation has changed, but for the first few years I had the B|Amp, I used it regularly
I have noticed a li'l white noise when things are otherwise silent.
Once I start playing mp3 thru it, and/or playing along, I haven't noticed it.
And I'm sure glad the amp has this feature
I have noticed a li'l white noise when things are otherwise silent.
Once I start playing mp3 thru it, and/or playing along, I haven't noticed it.
And I'm sure glad the amp has this feature
I just got the Forté D, such a great amp! Love the transparency and heft from this head. I primarily use it as a headphone amp and no hiss or flange compressed sound. The drive knob gives it a totally different sound when on through my headphones so i keep it off.
