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Natural ability??

#21
Ant Wellington said:
No, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that everyone can be Babe Ruth if they train hard enough. What I said was that every one who is great put in hard work. The neuroscientist says 10,000. What they also say is that putting in the 10,000 hours don't guarantee greatness.

That's why you have to be in love with the journey. It may not get you anywhere.
Click to expand...

So...having an affinity("a spontaneous or natural liking or sympathy for someone or something") towards hand eye coordination(i.e. baseball as the example used) or a musical ability in hearing tones, along with hard work will help in this path to greatness?

Hence, having a "natural ability or affinity" helps in any or most endeavors? I don't think the argument was, does natural ability guarantee greatness or being an expert, but having that affinity helps.

How does science explain idiot savants? Read the Plim Report or Extraordinary People

Science is not soul. Science is based off of theory that is in the quest of truth, right?
 
#23
Hey Nickbass79,

Science offers explanations. Science offers the technologies to help train and learn better. Science and technology gave us the guitar, metronome, pro tools, flight simulators, pitching machines, MRI machines and combustion engines. etc,...

These are some of the many things that help us perform better. They help provide a pathway for the infinite field of ideas that live in all of us.

Having a great melody in your head and heart is only the beginning. You have to have the knowledge base and dexterity to bring that idea to fruition. Then you have to have the technology to 'document' that idea.

If it wasn't for science we'd all still be living on a flat earth watching the sun revolve around us.

But, none of this has anything to do with the thread.

peace,
anthony
 
#24
Anthony

I get it and have studied this and these theories for a while. What I'm saying is, having a natural ability towards these abilities helps people achieve these goals. Which was the original statement of the thread (Do you believe some people have natural ability to play music?).

If it weren't for Isaac Newton having the affinity for figuring out why the apple falls, we wouldn't be where we are now (Of course I'm speaking plainly).

But, different people are naturally drawn towards different abilities. I run and sprint ever day. I hate it, but I do it for my job and for health. Doesn't mean I will be a world class marathon runner. My legs are too short, I weigh well over 200lbs, and just don't have the attraction towards this type of fitness. But, The guys I envy that can run faster and further than me, in turn, envy me because they just can't figure out music. Many have tried to take lessons, spent endless hours practicing and still can't grasp it. I guess it is kind of a mutual competition for the things we can't achieve ourselves.

Either way, Nature draws individuals towards different abilities, Nurture teaches individuals different abilities.

I personally think that people are naturally drawn to things. A natural ability

I'm not bashing science either. I have a Bachelors in Science and plan on finishing another degree in psychology. Science and especially psychology is based off of theory.

Great to speak to knowledgable people about this.
Thanks
 
#25
I agree,...

Being 7' tall is a gift from God if you want to be a basketball player. But if you want to be a jockey it could be thought of as a curse.

I'm far from being a scientist but I'm a research fanatic and I love to read. I'll do whatever it takes to be a better musician and teacher. And becoming knowledgeable about how the brain works and develops talents and abilities helps me in those endeavors.

I know what deliberate practice is. I know the difference between just shooting around in the gym and shooting 600 free throws non stop. One of those 2 things is deliberate practice. I've seen students get scholarships to college after only playing the bass for 2 or 3 years. And I've seen players who've been playing a long time and don't know how to play in time at any tempo. And having or not having discipline is a major factor. And I've seen the kids of great musicians arrive at 'greatness' sooner than usual because they already have a model of excellence to go by.

I just wish I knew 'then' what I know 'now'! I'd be REALLY good.

peace,
anthony
 
#26
nickbass79, I think it's important to figure out what 'natural ability' means.

I'm convinced that it's just a term that describes the collective traits of a person that helps in what a person does. How analytical, creative, calm, confident, problem solving, interested etc. a person is are all factors that are good for certain things and not so good for others. Beeing interested in understanding music, having a need to express yourself and beeing dedicated to learn are examples of factors that would help with becoming a great musician. Someone with those features may have a greater 'natural ability' than others for playing music. But in the end it's the work that matters. Nobody actually has a natural ability to play music, they have traits that are compatible with music.

I believe that anyone with a love for music can become an amazing musician. There will always be people that just don't get it and never will, and those will probably not try too long either. Their traits may lead them to feel motivated about something else.
 
#27
Basshoofd said:
Nobody actually has a natural ability to play music, they have traits that are compatible with music.
Click to expand...

I agree, we need to figure out what Natural Ability means or define it:
Noun 1. natural ability - ability that is inherited
aptitude - inherent ability
endowment, natural endowment, talent, gift - natural abilities or qualities
(cut and pasted from the dictionary on my PC)

I think this is what natural ability is. Compatibility towards a certain ability that any one person is born with. Practicing aside, being compatible or having an affinity, naturally, towards music is going to help in the endeavor chosen by a person.

Again, I love discussing these subjects with intelligent people. Thanks guys
Nick
 
#28
I agree with both of you.

I've study music SO much and I've studied every aspect of my bass so much that my subconscious has taken over the aspect of making music. It appears to the laymen that I'm a natural. Playing music IS so natural for me now. If I hear any melody or bass line in my head I can immediately play it. And I move gracefully to what I play and I smile when I do it. And like I said, it appears to the layman that I'm a natural. That's because I am a natural at it. But what has allowed me to be a natural is the countless hours I put into music, with and away from an instrument. I work on ear training and rhythmic displacement while I'm driving in the car. I'll randomly pick a key and list the diatonic chords, the secondary dominants, tritone substitutions and parallel minor chords in the shortest amount of time I can. All of this helps shorten my reaction time while I'm playing music. It's like a point guard seeing how a basketball play will develop before the offense and defense is in position. He's ran every combination in his mind before. And now his reaction time is shortened. He appears to be a natural to the laymen. But it's countless hours of practice and drilling that we see. When someone says 'We're in the key of F minor. Go to the VI chord. I instantly know that's a Db Maj7. No reaction time is wasted on trying to look at the bass neck or count on my fingers(hee hee). I know that answer as easy and fast as I know what 5x5 equals. It's instant. And I also can hear that chord before it's played. Unlike most musicians, I know how it's gonna' sound before we play it. And to the laymen and 'lesser' musicians it appears that I'm a natural and I have a gift from God.

Well I do have a gift from God. And that gift is life itself. It's a gift I share with all everyone alive.

As far as music ability,...

I WORKED MY ASS OFF!

and I continue to

WORK MY ASS OFF!!!

And I see progress every single day. Because my reaction time can always be shorten.

And I can always trick people into thinking that some extra blessings was bestowed onto me.

And that's OK with me.

-anthony

"Smells Like Funk"
 
#31
Here's an excellent synopsis of Galdwell's work for those who want to get a short primer on the subject: On Luck, Success, and 10,000 Hours.

Of particular interest to me is the Canadian youth hockey league. My wife is an elementary school teacher and she sees this all of the time in her students.

Personal example: My oldest daughter auditioned for and was accepted to a performing arts high school for this fall. The school has won nine Grammy's for its music program. Did she inherit this talent from her father? I'd like to think so, but I have no natural talent to pass along. (The funny part of this is the number of relatives from both sides trying to lay claim to where she got the talent!). She got there through hard work AND, perhaps more important, positive feedback.

When she started trumpet in the 6th grade music program, she actually practiced her instrument. Not much more than 5 minutes a day...but that was apparently 4 minutes longer than her fellow aspiring trumpeters.

Within a few weeks, she started to stand out from her peers. That earned her praise from the band director and more encouragement...which led to more practice...and more encouragement. A series of small successes leading to bigger ones. She is now known for her "natural" talent as a musician.

Just another, albeit slightly different, version of the Canadian youth hockey story from the link.
 
#32
Hmm very interesting stuff guys...Thanks for the replies; I want to believe that its all hard work and dedication but I doubt its that simple.. because of how complex the body is and stuff; traits, genes. etc etc.. But I guess ill keep telling myself its hard work

Anthony did you ever feel like you hit a plateau as far as playing goes?

Do you notice improvement less after you got REALLY good ya know what I mean? (sorry if im being confusing hopefully you understand)

hmm 10,000 hours.. dam it looks like i need about a couple thousand more hours lol


Its weird I've never seen you mess up when you play; Like specifically when you solo.. Its like every note and phrase is perfect surgical percison; exactly what you meant to do amazing lol
Ya know what I mean?

Because of you Anthony I'm going to study my notes, fretboard, etc.. Why not do everything you can to make you better?
 
#33
We're not talking about being Physically capable. We're talking about hard work as opposed to being naturally gifted.

There's a video of a guy on YouTube of a guy who plays guitar and sings. I saw him years ago playing for the previous Pope. This guy has no hands. He's a very good guitar player,..,WITH HIS FEET!!! He worked his ass off. He overcame what most would consider a detriment. But he wouldn't be defeated by a physically handicap.

Also, some of the worst basketball players I've ever seen were guys over 7' tall.

Were not talking about physical traits. Larry Bird had a 2 inch vertical leap(hee hee). And he was slow. But he was a gym rat. He worked harder than most people in the NBA. I hated him when he played because of what he did to my favorite teams. But when I think about it,..,if there was 2 seconds left in the game and I could choose anyone to take the last shot,.,.Larry Bird would be on that very short list. Yes,...he was tall. But he wasn't a good player because he was tall. He was good because he worked his ass off.

Honestly, I've never, ever felt bad about my playing. I've never hit a rut. I've never been frustrated. I watch what most guys consider 'practice' and it's nothing close to what I do. I KNOW that I'll always get better because I work at it honestly and deliberately. I'm not practicing my favorite Marcus Miller lick(only),...I'm working on knowing the 'inner workings' of music better. I'm working on knowing my bass.

As I see it,..,my playing is always a work in progress. It's impossible to shoot free throws to well. You're never gonna' hear a basketball coach say, "You know what,...you shoot free throws too well. You're a detriment to our team!". That's never gonna' happen.

A person can never know the notes on their instrument too well. A person can never know too much theory.

But yes,...

Just like with English,..,sometimes I'm at a lost for words. That how I think if it. Sometimes I can't find the notes to express a particular sentiment. But that's OK. Just like with English. Sometimes it's even more expressive to be at a loss for words. If you asked me how I feel about my mother,...I'd pause a long time. No words in my vocabulary could express that sentiment. And the listener would know that and get even more understanding from my silence.

peace,
anthony
 
#34
The nice thing about playing music is that you never have to beat Pete Sampras.

You just have to be good enough to let your musical personality come through. Some people have magnetic personalities, it seems, for whatever reason. I think this comes through in music, or I guess music focuses it. If Mozart was just a technical genius that could play perfectly just because his dad made him, he'd be a mere footnote in music history. So, as Allaudin Mathieu wrote (paraphrasing): "The case must be that Mozart simply composed what I want to hear!"

So music is not only about putting time into scales, it's an internal search for the best parts of yourself--and a lots of the time you get guidance from influences or you recognize something good about human nature in their playing, or something life-affirming. Then when you throw your beautiful soul out there, people get it and respond to it.

But that's not to say I don't agree with the 10,000 hours-type ideas. Sometimes that Outlier stuff is a little hard to swallow because people that are truly disciplined are very rare. A lot of people play at discipline and fool themselves. If I'm honest with myself about how I've spent the last 15 years in my music, it's a little disappointing. (I'll get over it!) However, because my dayjob has required it, I'm as bad as Horowitz on a computer keyboard. And, as Kenny Werner wrote, we're all really swell with our forks and knives. "Do you ever stab yourself in the eye? No! Bullseye, every time." As far as stuffing my face is concerned, I'm in the woodshed every day, three times a day!
 
#35
I wasnt talking about mere physically (strength etc); more physiologically ....

I really do believe the different physiological makeup of humans is what makes certain people genetically dispositioned to be "naturals" at certain things... Or what we are calling "natural ability"..

I think it plays a role but no doubt hard work and dedication who can denounce those? (this is a given; but i believe there is something deeper than this)

Some people are just born to be better warriors or rocket scientists or golfers or whatever..

This is exactly how everyone is different in their own unique way.. Every wonder why some babies walk,talk,swim, or read sooner than other babies? Babies have no concept of hard work or discipline for the most part... Thats the beauty of life

If you took 10 different males same age trained them in anything, both equal training,discipline etc etc.. you think after X time they would be equal?

Just something to think about... I don't know the answer :)

In my opinion people are definitely pre-dispositioned by their genetic make-up to be better or worse at certain things in life...

Or else everyone who put in the same hard work/dedication would be Tiger Woods or Lebron James too.. but these guys are RARE... why?

Something else to think about..?

Actually it just came to me... The think we talking about is kinda like whole nature vs nurture .. but they both DO exist

I was going to explain this more right brain style but this is the closest to "science" my brain can function ... :/

And personally I think hard work / dedication is more important by far..!!!

But the nature aspect oh yeah it's there
 
#38
The problem with the word 'pre-dispositioned' is that it's a word like 'reincarnated'. It can't be substantiated. People use it and not have to 'qualify' it. Just like 'reincarnated'.

Someone please tell me what it means to be pre-didpositioned to play basketball. Does it mean that you can already dribble, shoot or dunk from the free throw line even before you've ever played basketball? What does it mean to be pre-didpositioned to be an accountant? Does it mean that you are born knowing how to count? What does it mean to be pre-didpositioned to be a race car driver? Does it mean that you never stalled a car when you learn how to drive a manual shift? What does it mean to be pre-didpositioned to play music? Does it mean you already know how to play scales?

It's a word people use but never explain. Which makes it a 'cop out' kind of word.

I bet any amount of money that Mario Andretti stalled the car the 1st time he drove a stick,...just like I did.

Also,...here's a fallacy with that word.

Can someone be pre-dispositioned to something before it exist. Meaning, were there people pre-dispositioned to play bass before it existed in 1960? Or does the pre-disposition only happen after an instrument was invented.

James Naismith invented basketball in 1891. Were there no people born with a pre-disposition to basketball before that date? If Michael Jordan had been born in 1890 he wouldn't have his pre-disposition for basketball? For thousands of years no one had a pre-disposition for basketball and now in the last 100 years we have thousands of people with a pre-disposition for basketball?

Like I said,...

It's a word that really can't be substantiated so people throw it out there,...like reincarnation. And I'm not saying that reincarnation is or is not true. But I am saying that it hasn't been proven yet.

I prefer to deal with facts. That why I trust science. Scientist are always willing to change there view on something when something is proved or disproved. There is 'knowing' and there is 'belief'. People believed the earth was flat. And people believed that the sun revolved around the earth. It was easy to just say this things. Science proved otherwise. Just like it's proving that there is no pre-disposition. And being tall, short, black, white, male, female, fast, slow, smart or dumb is not pre-disposition.

Oh yea,...there is also no such thing as,...

"all things being equal"

All things can't be equal. The closest you can come is twins. And they aren't equal. Horace and Harvey Grant played in the NBA. Look up their stats. They are very different. They were about as equal as you can get. They had different work ethics and different surroundings among other things. That why one is a 4 time NBA champion and an all star and the other isn't. Can't get any more equal than the Grant brothers. Why don't they have 'twin' pre-dispositions?

Like I said, do the research(like I did). It speaks for itself.

By the way,...this same pre-disposition is the reason people say that blacks are better at certain sports. It's bull. The book 'Bounce' addresses that matter too. With research and facts.

peace,
anthony
 
#40
The answer is ABSOLUTELY YES - people do NOT all have the same abilities, regardless of hard hard they work, and I can say that unequivocally.

It is a very nice thought that people can do whatever they want with hard work, but it is just that - a nice fantasy.

My first vocation was as a psychologist and we did a lot of work and research on human aptitudes. There are many well-documented studies showing that humans are born with varying levels of a dozen or so basic aptitudes. The pattern of the high and low aptitudes determines what someone should best be doing, and you can never change this pattern.

For example, you cannot develop perfect pitch if you do not have the aptitude. I had a good friend that worked extremely hard for many years to be a singer and performer - no one could have worked harder, but she was never successful. When I watched her perform, I noticed that she was slightly off-key a lot of the time. She could not hear this at all. When she had her aptitudes tested, she found she was lacking in pitch discrimination, and nothing was going to give that to her.

Other aptitudes related to music are rhythm and rhythm memory, finger dexterity, and tonal memory. There are also visual abilities that make sight reading faster and easier, or even possible at all.

No - you don't need perfect pitch to play music - unless you are a singer or playing a fretless instrument. Same for the other aptitudes. You don't need finger dexterity or perfect pitch to be a drummer, but you'd darn well better have rhythm!

There is a non-profit research foundation that has been testing people's aptitudes for nearly 100 years. I recommend to nearly everyone to take the tests and find out how they may better their lives by doing something different. I really push them to send their kids, so they don't waste their high-school and expensive college years following their interests (that change all the time) instead of what they were "built" to do and end up unfulfilled and frustrated in their jobs.

Check it out - www.jocrf.org

Sorry for the long post, but this is an area I feel very strongly about and actually have the experience and expertise to give an informed opinion.
 
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