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Natural ability??

#121
I'm far from being great,...at anything!!! But there are some things I work hard at and there are some things I don't work hard at.

I have a pretty high IQ and I approach most things in a logical and efficient manor. But along with that I have a set of life experiences that most people don't have. I grew up in the hood. I was on honor roll and deans list. I went to college. I dropped out of college. I went to jail for a year for a crime I didn't commit. But I got away with serious crimes I did commit. I've been around the world playing music. And I've played music in every state but 4. I'm a small business owner. I have a school. I've been married and divorced. I'm saying all of that to say that most of my 'agenda' has come from life experience. Not speculation. I understand the word 'consequence'.

When I give advice or my opinion to a young student, it's advice and opinion born out of the road less traveled.

AND,...

I still can be wrong. I have a God given to be wrong. And I exercise that right as much as I can. At least that's what my ex wife says!

I'm NEVER afraid to give my opinion. And I don't hide behind anonymity like a lot of people on forums. I've heard the most vile and racist things on forums because those cowards can hide behind 'a white sheet'.

I'm trying to address a buncha' postings at 1 time. Sorry if it seems like I'm all over the map.

I figured I was given this forum for reason. I really didn't want to do it. I'm way to busy. If it helps people I'll keep doing it. But if it doesn't,...I'll be glad to shut it down. But it won't be a 'bullish*t' forum. And I won't sugarcoat my thoughts.

And I'm typing this while I'm driving to Atlanta for to do a masterclass. Madness!!!

-aw
 
#122
thepontif said:
You can't cultivate what isn't there. Got it, cultivate it. Ain't got it, can't cultivate it. You can cultivate a field to grow crops. But you need a field in the first place.

The bigger question is, how do you cultivate it. How do you know if it is, or was, there? How much of the result is the cultivation, and how much is just a function of the state of the soil before you started?
Click to expand...

So, what you are saying in a sense is the soil has to have the 'natural ability' or natural PH balances to be fertile, so it can allow things to grow or be cultivated? I agree completely, Pontif.

I think the definitions or interpretations of the words natural ability, resonance, affinity, aptitude, levels of deduction...etc...have been misinterpreted repeatedly in this thread. They are all talking about the same thing, I will use the term natural ability because it is the title of this thread.

Everybody agree?
 
#124
nickbass79 said:
Well, Anthony, my opinion is that you ARE a great player. I hope to have some of your knowledge passed on to me.
Click to expand...

+ 1.

I saw you here in Fresno w/ that "other" kind of famous bass player... Woolen... Wooter... Something like that... And not only are you a terrific musician, but, from what I could tell in the short time we talked, you are a fine, generous person who loves to share life's lessons learned.

Be safe driving.
 
#125
Well, I like this forum so far - touches on topics you might not expect in a site ostensibly devoted to bass.

But I know it can be a bit tiring to repeat yourself on the same point. Hey, I'm a software developer who manages a small team - I have to do this every day! It takes me real effort of will and patience to put aside my own opinion and honestly try to listen to another point of view. Sometimes I honestly surprise myself and have to eat some less-than-tasty crow.

And sometimes I also realize the other debater is emotionally invested in their own view and are only waiting for their turn to talk.

It's a struggle to realize whether it's my own ego that is urging me to my own view.

I've read in some books that our decisions are actually made emotionally in the unconscious, and our conscious mind uses "logic" just to justify them to ourselves. It's been suggested that this is a survival mechanism - we naturally extrapolate meaning from everything we experience, the example I recall being hearing a twig snap in the dark and imagining a predator is lurking. So if this is true, we're "hard-wired" into vigorously defending our beliefs.

OK, I'm rambling. All this could be wrong! :)
 
#126
I've been following this discussion while I've been on the road the past week so I apologize if I appear to be rehashing some points. My fingers and iPhone keypads don't mix if a semi-intelligent response is required.

I think it really just boils down to whether or not we believe you are born with a predisposition, or attraction, to pursue a particular avocation. For the most part, we all seem to agree that you can develop those avocational skills throughout your life. Where the disagreement comes in relates to whether or not we have a head start at birth. In other words, Little Johnny was hard-wired to pursue & understand music due to his genetic make up while Little Tommy was not. Little Johnny then has a head start and appears to be a natural, while Little Tommy has to work his ass off.

Without getting into more anecdotal war stories, I'll leave it at this: I used to believe in natural talent. No more. Experience has shown me it is a matter of having the right combination of teacher (whether that's a person, experience, environment, whatever) and student (open to learning and willing to do the work).

I believe we can accomplish anything if those two factors are in harmony.

Now, the obvious retort to this is, "Well, you can't make a Hyundai into a Ferrari."

You can.

You will have to rebuild the freakin' thing until it no longer resembles a Hyundai, but it can be done. It may only have a Hyundai logo on the hood when you're done, but you have turned a Hyundai into a Ferrari.

The same works with us humans. It's just a matter of how badly you want to do it, how much of the price you are willing to pay to get it done, and getting your hands on the right "parts." Anyone who has served in the military has seen this breaking down and rebuilding process first hand.
 
#127
Octavian said:
I've been following this discussion while I've been on the road the past week so I apologize if I appear to be rehashing some points. My fingers and iPhone keypads don't mix if a semi-intelligent response is required.

I think it really just boils down to whether or not we believe you are born with a predisposition, or attraction, to pursue a particular avocation. For the most part, we all seem to agree that you can develop those avocational skills throughout your life. Where the disagreement comes in relates to whether or not we have a head start at birth. In other words, Little Johnny was hard-wired to pursue & understand music due to his genetic make up while Little Tommy was not. Little Johnny then has a head start and appears to be a natural, while Little Tommy has to work his ass off.

Without getting into more anecdotal war stories, I'll leave it at this: I used to believe in natural talent. No more. Experience has shown me it is a matter of having the right combination of teacher (whether that's a person, experience, environment, whatever) and student (open to learning and willing to do the work).

I believe we can accomplish anything if those two factors are in harmony.

Now, the obvious retort to this is, "Well, you can't make a Hyundai into a Ferrari."

You can.

You will have to rebuild the freakin' thing until it no longer resembles a Hyundai, but it can be done. It may only have a Hyundai logo on the hood when you're done, but you have turned a Hyundai into a Ferrari.

The same works with us humans. It's just a matter of how badly you want to do it, how much of the price you are willing to pay to get it done, and getting your hands on the right "parts." Anyone who has served in the military has seen this breaking down and rebuilding process first hand.
Click to expand...

I see where you’re coming from!

But it is still more cost effective to produce a Ferrari 430 Scuderia out of Ferrari assembly lines than to turn a well-designed (for its purpose) Hyundai subcompact Accent into a supercar! I could even imagine how complex adjusting the assembly line of one Ferrari model for the production of another model could be. A working solution is usually to increase the number of shared parts between models at conception.

I think that beyond the question of Inborn Predispositions lies the ever-problematic question of purpose! Arguing Purpose by design is not very popular these days!
 
#128
Hmmmm......well maybe. Neural pathways in the brain get hard wired with time based on behavior traits, environment, experience, yada yada. For example, research has shown that the brain of a feral child is PHYSICALLY different than a socialized child. As I understand it, you MAY start with a blank slate, but I really don't think that slate can be erased. I don't think that's the way we work.
 
#129
thepontif said:
Hmmmm......well maybe. Neural pathways in the brain get hard wired with time based on behavior traits, environment, experience, yada yada. For example, research has shown that the brain of a feral child is PHYSICALLY different than a socialized child. As I understand it, you MAY start with a blank slate, but I really don't think that slate can be erased. I don't think that's the way we work.
Click to expand...

Heard that too. Also read that the brains of adults from different cultures have been observed to be physically different as well. Wild, huh?
 
#135
I, for one, am glad you hear to share your knowledge and opinions Anthony. I'm not going to pretend I always agree with you (and I bet I'm wrong more often than I'm right) but I always think about what you say. Keep giving to us straight. I have friends and family if I need smoke blown up my a$$. :)
 
#136
Now, back on topic.

I agree that there has to be something to cultivate. However, I think most people are born with the raw skills required (ability to hear, tone awareness, finger functionality, etc.). Why do we accept that the vast majority of people are born with the capacity to learn to walk, talk, eat, read, write, add, subtract, multiply, divide, etc, but we believe only an exclusive group of individuals can play music?

Is creativity something that can be taught? I'm not sure that's the case is the strictest sense of the term, at least I can't think of a way to teach it. However I absolutely know that tools and exercises exist to build creative muscles. I've used them. I've seen positive results from using them.

I've been flirting with becoming a "talented" musician, off and on, for almost 30 years. There is one thing that is crystal clear during that time. When I consistently practice difficult tasks I become a better musician. When I screw around, leave my bass sitting on the stand, play easy stuff, etc.; I tend to really suck as a bass player.

If I have some innate inborn talent for music that others are missing, I've never seen it. Everything I have accomplished has been the result of working on something I couldn't do.

I'm just one example, but the science seems to support me.
 
#138
Yo Matt,

Yea,..I'm not trying to get people to see things the way I do. I don't need people to agree with me. My opinions are just that,...opinions.

But I really enjoy thought provoking conversation with open-minded, smart people. The world is a better and more interesting place because of differences in opinions.

peace,
anthony
 
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