NCAA Football - 2011

[Deleted member 92857]

...(despite what Smokin Blinders thinks),

This is a perfect example of why I avoid discussing football with Alabama fans.

Eublet, I'd suggest you stop acting like a typical Alabama Fan while in TalkBass. There are rules here that require that you treat others with respect (an alien notion to most Alabama fans), and if you violate these rules moderators issue infractions. Just trying to keep you out of trouble.

 

[Eublet]

Eublet, you're going to have to stop acting like an Alabama Fan while in TalkBass. There are rules here that require that you treat others with respect (an alien notion to most Alabama fans), and if you violate these rules moderators issue infractions.

Seriously? We're in a sports thread talking fan smack for fun. I'll back off if you're offended. My apologies, honestly.

By the way, the rules for infraction relate to other things you've crossed as well, so back at you!

 

[Eublet]

You're right. If Stanford is guilty of this, I'd be astonished. And outraged.

"everybody does it" is no excuse for something this egregious. That is, IF it is true. I do agree with you that Saban is probably being singled out here due to his success, but it's still utterly despicable if it's true.

If it's as widespread as you say, then the NCAA really needs to put a stop to it TODAY.

The thing is, it isn't true in the way it was reported. It was obviously spun to incriminate Saban and make him look deceitful. Following the hubub for his departure at Miami, most folks will accept any negative reporting of him at face value. I'm not saying you in particular, but just "people". It's typical media reporting BS. Whatever draws attention and readership. I could go into a lot of detail about the article and the guys they used as sources for the story, but I've done it in one of these threads already if you want to search for it. It's a total crock, and I'm not just saying it because I'm a Bama fan. The same story and rebuttal could be provided a hundred times for other schools.

 

[BartmanPDX]

The thing is, it isn't true in the way it was reported. It was obviously spun to incriminate Saban and make him look deceitful. Following the hubub for his departure at Miami, most folks will accept any negative reporting of him at face value. I'm not saying you in particular, but just "people". It's typical media reporting BS. Whatever draws attention and readership. I could go into a lot of detail about the article and the guys they used as sources for the story, but I've done it in one of these threads already if you want to search for it. It's a total crock, and I'm not just saying it because I'm a Bama fan. The same story and rebuttal could be provided a hundred times for other schools.

I hear you.

Certainly Saban is an attractive target for lots of people. No doubt about that.

But this oversigning business really burns me up. If ANY coach is knowingly doing it (very hard to prove), then IMO they should be immediately fired, as they have fundamentally broken their obligations to do what's best for their kids.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

The thing is, it isn't true in the way it was reported. It was obviously spun to incriminate Saban and make him look deceitful. Following the hubub for his departure at Miami, most folks will accept any negative reporting of him at face value. I'm not saying you in particular, but just "people". It's typical media reporting BS. Whatever draws attention and readership. I could go into a lot of detail about the article and the guys they used as sources for the story, but I've done it in one of these threads already if you want to search for it. It's a total crock, and I'm not just saying it because I'm a Bama fan. The same story and rebuttal could be provided a hundred times for other schools.

Yes, of course, the rest of the football world looks at Alabama and nitpicks everything Saban and Alabama does to try to get them, because, of course, Alabama is the center of the football universe.

 

[FilterFunk]

To those in the know - have any major college football programs made significant changes to their practice and conditioning routines because of the heat? Especially Texas schools?

 

[Eublet]

Yes, of course, the rest of the football world looks at Alabama and nitpicks everything Saban and Alabama does to try to get them, because, of course, Alabama is the center of the football universe.

Seriously, bro, is this really what's inside you? Look at all the attention Auburn has gotten lately about issues. Being at the top has it's consequences. Quit trying to make me out to be some kind of narcissistic paranoid. It's common sense. You're way to bothered and touchy about things it seems. I'm leaving you alone so you can go cool down for a while.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Seriously, bro, is this really what's inside you? Look at all the attention Auburn has gotten lately about issues. Being at the top has it's consequences. Quit trying to make me out to be some kind of narcissistic paranoid. It's common sense. You're way to bothered and touchy about things it seems. I'm leaving you alone so you can go cool down for a while.

[DEL]Yeah, good thinking. I might get all upset and start calling you snarkey names or something.[/DEL]

I publicly withdraw this. I missed your apology. Apology accepted. Smack is sometimes hard to read on an online forum, and I apologize if I read what was not there. We OK?

 

[Eublet]

But this oversigning business really burns me up. If ANY coach is knowingly doing it (very hard to prove), then IMO they should be immediately fired, as they have fundamentally broken their obligations to do what's best for their kids.

This is where I disagree, because the coaches job is to compete in the league and win games. His responsibility is to also do right by the kids along the way. So that creates a lot of gray area. ALL scholarships that any school offers are year to year, meaning they can be revoked at any point the school wishes. If the NCAA wanted to change that, they could. They don't.

So, what does that mean when a player doesn't live up to his or her potential? In most cases, it means that they are moved to the back of the line, where they either hang around and get their education, or they transfer to another school where they'll see some playing time. Happens all the time. So the school doesn't actively revoke their scholarship, but they tell the kid its likely he'll never see the field to play. Is that wrong? After all, the coach has recruited other players who can do a better job and help win games. Is benching the player good for the kid? Not really, but the coaches job is to win games and generate fan support and revenue for the school. So the kids makes the decision on they do with their future...stay or leave.

In the case of disciplinary action, as with Jenkins at Florida, at some point the coach dismisses an otherwise highly talented player who could contribute to the teams success. Urban was good at overlooking things (no offense intended, Gators), but Muschamp is not going to put up with it. Is that good for the kid, or is he looking out for the team and the school?

So lastly, what happens when a kid is injured, and the coaching staff and team doctors feel like the kid can't safely play at the level required in the SEC and be competitive? In Saban's case, they removed the athletic scholarship and offered them an academic scholarship to finish their degree. In otherwords, the kids in the NY Times article (except for one who was released on discplinary reasons) could have stayed at UA and finished their degree, at no cost to them minus living expenses. That seems pretty fair to me. That a couple of them want to argue that they could have played and continued to be a part of the team is highly debatable, and that's where the thrust of the issue is. They think they could have played. Saban and staff think otherwise, and that they probably would have been at the bottom of the depth chart anyway if they had stayed on the team. So the player could have pursued a scholarship elsewhere, but no other team would offer them. Why? Is it because they sucked as a player, or because their injury was viewed as too debilitating by those other schools. Either way, no other school wanted them either. So there only option is to stay at school and get a quality education for free, or try to start a scandal with the NY Times about one of the most decorated coaches and programs in the country.

It's a crock.

 

[aborgman]

Which is all typical of the things folks say about him, but I really don't want to go down this road again, because all everyone brings up is how he left Miami, which somehow means he's a dirty, rotten liar. Never matter that coaches change jobs all the time. It's just a tiresome argument that's quite boring.

Coaches leave jobs all the time.

They don't leave them like Saban left MSU, LSU, and Miami all the time though.

...but then there are all the OTHER examples of being dirty and rotten - the oversigning, "medical" scholarships, the repeated questionable (but not caught yet) dealings with unscrupulous agents/characters, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Eublet]

They don't leave them like Saban left MSU, LSU, and Miami all the time though.

Yes, they do. How often do coaches tell a team they're going to take another job 2 or 3 years from now? Never. They all get an offer, interview for a career advance, and then move on. It's typical. Saban did nothing different. The only thing that got him in trouble was the "I will not be the coach at Alabama" comment he made in anger at a press conference.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

The only thing that got him in trouble was the "I will not be the coach at Alabama" comment he made in anger at a press conference.

That goes down in history with "I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewenski". Thank goodness Bill did not proceed to do her every fall weekend on national TV.

You gotta admit, that rightly earned him the title of "liar". Unless you can prove that a) he is not the coach at Alabama, or b) convince anyone that he had no idea about becoming the coach at that point in time. Good luck with that.

 

[aborgman]

You guys are hillarious. The scholarship yanking thing was done to death, simply because a couple of guys who couldn't play football anymore decided to make a story about it. That happened with Saban, well duh. Those kinds of things always follow the guy at the top. There have since been many articles and conversations in the sporting world about oversigning, and it's obvious that Saban's practice is MUCH less egregious than what many coaches do.

No, it isn't.

It's less egregious than what some other coaches in the SEC do.

The Big Ten has had rules preventing exactly what is common in the SEC for years upon years.

In other words, everyone does it, and many folks do it much worse than what was talked about in that one NY Times article. Smoke and mirrors, but sense Saban is at the top (despite what Smokin Blinders thinks), and is considered the greatest recruiter in college football, he's the one that it made sense to make the article about.

Saban isn't the only one to do it - but the almost all folks who do it worse are a couple other SEC coaches... and not everyone does it. Over the last 9 years there are 13 BCS teams (of 66 total) that have AVERAGED signing more folks than they can fit in a class:

7/13 are in the SEC
3/13 are in the Big 12
2/13 are in the Big East
1/13 is in the PAC 10

The 13 oversigners are:

#1) Auburn
#2) Mississippi State
#3) Iowa State
#4) South Carolina
#5) Arkansas
#6) Kansas State
#7) Ole Miss
#8t) Alabama
#8t) West Virginia
#8t) Oregon State
#11) Oklahoma St.
#12) Lousiville
#13) Kentucky

So really, it is all a crock, and much to do about nothing. Go check out your own schools with regard to this. You'll be surprised to see the same thing.

No, I won't.

My school average recruiting class of 21.67 (of a potential 25) over the last 9 years.

Alabama averaged 26.11 of a potential 25.

The only team in the SEC further from oversigning than my team was Vanderbilt.

 

[aborgman]

You're right. If Stanford is guilty of this, I'd be astonished. And outraged.

Oversigning = average more than 25 signees a year.

Alabama (6th worst in SEC) averages 26.11

Stanford? Not even close to the limit at 18.89, lowest of ANY BCS school.

 

[aborgman]

Yes, they do. How often do coaches tell a team they're going to take another job 2 or 3 years from now? Never. They all get an offer, interview for a career advance, and then move on. It's typical. Saban did nothing different.

Yeah, actually he did.

His manner of leaving, his comments about the previous schools, and his obfuscating and outright lying about interest in other jobs he has definitely handled different than most college football coaches.

The only thing that got him in trouble was the "I will not be the coach at Alabama" comment he made in anger at a press conference.

Right... because MSU and LSU fans loved him before that.

 

[Eublet]

Oversigning is relative though if the players are brought in knowing they will be grayshirted. What Saban has insisted, and what I've posted earlier, is that he has never brought a grayshirt in without them knowing they would be grayshirted from the start. To my knowledge, this is true and no one has suggested otherwise. Averaging a little better than 1 gray shirt a year doesn not equal the big deal that has been made over the ordeal in the press, and it certainly doesn't mean Saban is screwing players. That's what I'm arguing. You have to look past the top layer on this thing. The SEC is certainly looking to make some modifications to this across the league, but the big offenders who are actually screwing players are not the ones that have been highlighted in the press thus far.

 

[Eublet]

You gotta admit, that rightly earned him the title of "liar". Unless you can prove that a) he is not the coach at Alabama, or b) convince anyone that he had no idea about becoming the coach at that point in time. Good luck with that.

No, I don't admit that at all. I admit that he sucks in front of the media, and his mouth gets away from him. I agree that he made a huge mistake in saying that, and that it has caused him a lot of grief. However, I also believe that he had actually NO intention of being the coach at Alabama at that time. The records of what was going on with Mal Moore traveling to Miami after that, plus all the recounts of how the deal was done, support this. He was a coach working on finishing his NFL season, and was ticked off at the media for constantly asking him about Alabama rumors when no interviews or discussions had been had. That's a far cry from lying to intentionally decieve someone.

You remember Tubberville? Remember he said he wouldn't leave Ole Miss unless it was in a pine box? Next year he was the coach at Auburn. Was he a liar? This kind of thing happens every year.

 

[MJ5150]

Wow, Eublet is being fed to the sharks this morning. Allow this neutral Gator fan to step in and offer a respite. In regards to the comments about Saban in front of the media.....Saban is like a toned down version of Lane Kiffin, sorta.

-Mike

 

[Deleted member 92857]

No, I don't admit that at all. I admit that he sucks in front of the media, and his mouth gets away from him. I agree that he made a huge mistake in saying that, and that it has caused him a lot of grief. However, I also believe that he had actually NO intention of being the coach at Alabama at that time. The records of what was going on with Mal Moore traveling to Miami after that, plus all the recounts of how the deal was done, support this. He was a coach working on finishing his NFL season, and was ticked off at the media for constantly asking him about Alabama rumors when no interviews or discussions had been had. That's a far cry from lying to intentionally decieve someone.

You remember Tubberville? Remember he said he wouldn't leave Ole Miss unless it was in a pine box? Next year he was the coach at Auburn. Was he a liar? This kind of thing happens every year.

I see. Person who lies = Liar, except when it's Nick Saban. When Nick says something that is 100% untrue, he doesn't do it to intentionally decieve anyone and it's a huge mistake, not a lie. Thanks for clearing that up.

Are you listening to yourself? I've noticed that a lot of Alabama fans put their mouth in gear long before they put their brain in gear, especially when confronted with uncomfortable facts. I think you just did, if that's how you view Nick "not lying" about going to Alabama.

For the Record, Yes, Tuberville was a liar too. The fact that it happens all the time doesn't make a lie not a lie or a liar not a liar. Outside of the Bama nation anyway.

If Nick Saban was eating children, many in the Bama nation would insist that the children had it coming to them. It's quite a common attitude in the Bama nation.

 

[aborgman]

Oversigning is relative though if the players are brought in knowing they will be grayshirted. What Saban has insisted, and what I've posted earlier, is that he has never brought a grayshirt in without them knowing they would be grayshirted from the start.

Several players who were grayshirted or medical'ed have disagreed.

Averaging a little better than 1 gray shirt a year doesn not equal the big deal that has been made over the ordeal in the press, and it certainly doesn't mean Saban is screwing players.

Any oversigning at all means players are getting screwed.

The SEC is certainly looking to make some modifications to this across the league,

No, that is just window dressing. They don't really want to do anything about it.

It's no coincidence that the SEC DOMINATES the oversigning and medical group.

but the big offenders who are actually screwing players are not the ones that have been highlighted in the press thus far.

No - pretty much all the worst players in the game have been highlighted. Basically the SEC in a nutshell.