NCD: Mesa Subway 212!

[jeff7bass]

Hopefully Gibson doesn’t destroy them Mesa bass stuff

I don't see that happening. Gibson's a high-end company with a reputation. Mesa's profitable. They would be hurting themselves, but then again there's a lot that doesn't make sense these days. Lots of self-inflicted stupidity, especially with large corporations.

 

[Fingerz]

Hey, so ....


First gig out with my 212. Mixed, not great feelings... The room was the worst room I have ever played in acoustically. It's a dry dock for a boat - So all hard surfaces, plus the hull of the boat in the centre of the room! Everything sounded awful, but it's not my first rodeo, and one of the things I love about the Thunderfunk is the way you can quickly get a usable sound by shelving/flattening your sound with the Timbre/Enhance controls.

I just couldn't get anything like what I hear, and love, at home to come through in the mix. I've had this sh*t loads before but I just couldn't get out of the mud. The tone was very muffled and dark, huge low end and none of the clarity and articulation echoed in owners posts as well as what I hear. Quite compressed.
Is this consistant with what you experience? Or perhaps my room was just a really really bad one and also I've not got my preferences sorted with the cab?
Being more forward in the mids than my old Epifani 310 and having quite an Ampeg character was one of the things that made me go for it, and feel confident I wouldn't have this experience.
My pedals sounded funny too, it is possible the power wasn't great, but the guitarist had no complaints....


Please excuse the hijacking of this thread. I am on the spectrum so my head has gone full on into this.

 

[agedhorse]

Do not draw conclusions from a single experience in a bad acoustic environment. Wait until you get more time with the rig in a variety of spaces.

 

[FFEJY]

Are these available with the gray/silver grill option like the Powerhouse cabinets were?

 

[agedhorse]

Are these available with the gray/silver grill option like the Powerhouse cabinets were?

I believe they are all black, but that’s a relatively easy part to remove and have powder coated any color you like.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Hey, so ....


First gig out with my 212. Mixed, not great feelings... The room was the worst room I have ever played in acoustically. It's a dry dock for a boat - So all hard surfaces, plus the hull of the boat in the centre of the room! Everything sounded awful, but it's not my first rodeo, and one of the things I love about the Thunderfunk is the way you can quickly get a usable sound by shelving/flattening your sound with the Timbre/Enhance controls.

I just couldn't get anything like what I hear, and love, at home to come through in the mix. I've had this sh*t loads before but I just couldn't get out of the mud. The tone was very muffled and dark, huge low end and none of the clarity and articulation echoed in owners posts as well as what I hear. Quite compressed.
Is this consistant with what you experience? Or perhaps my room was just a really really bad one and also I've not got my preferences sorted with the cab?
Being more forward in the mids than my old Epifani 310 and having quite an Ampeg character was one of the things that made me go for it, and feel confident I wouldn't have this experience.
My pedals sounded funny too, it is possible the power wasn't great, but the guitarist had no complaints....


Please excuse the hijacking of this thread. I am on the spectrum so my head has gone full on into this.

The worst sound I've experienced during a gig (aside from unqualified FOH) has been in difficult venues.

Does your Thunderfunk have a variable high-pass filter? If not, you may want an HPF pedal for difficult venues.

 

[Fingerz]

The worst sound I've experienced during a gig (aside from unqualified FOH) has been in difficult venues.

Does your Thunderfunk have a variable high-pass filter? If not, you may want an HPF pedal for difficult venues.

I don't have an HPF pedal, but mainly due to the TFunk having a similar ability built in - it's one of the features that has kept me so loyal to that amp. The "Timbre" control, gives you the option to go both ways from a central 12 noon starting point.
It's always given me the ability to sort out a useable sound in a difficult room in seconds. For me with gear the ability to 'never sound bad' has been my mantra, over e.g.having face melting tone once in a while when you get the right room..

My old rig, normally I'd run at 11am/11.30am, with the subway I got round to about 1pm and still wasn't achieving the goal of clarity, and my slap tone was still very subdued. It's got me spooked tbh.


One thing I wonder, is whether the subway cab is voiced for the subway heads? AFAIA on reflection most guys are using the mesa amps with their cabs? Do experience a notable difference with other amps, or ever tried?

 

[Taustin Powers]

I have played a Mesa and a Berg head through my Mesa cab. Both sound equally fantastic.

From what you are writing, it sounds to me like it was a very challenging room that your amp did not have the right settings for.

 

[Al Kraft]

I don't have an HPF pedal, but mainly due to the TFunk having a similar ability built in - it's one of the features that has kept me so loyal to that amp. The "Timbre" control, gives you the option to go both ways from a central 12 noon starting point.
It's always given me the ability to sort out a useable sound in a difficult room in seconds. For me with gear the ability to 'never sound bad' has been my mantra, over e.g.having face melting tone once in a while when you get the right room..

My old rig, normally I'd run at 11am/11.30am, with the subway I got round to about 1pm and still wasn't achieving the goal of clarity, and my slap tone was still very subdued. It's got me spooked tbh.


One thing I wonder, is whether the subway cab is voiced for the subway heads? AFAIA on reflection most guys are using the mesa amps with their cabs? Do experience a notable difference with other amps, or ever tried?

First let me fully acknowledge that you heard what you heard and are obviously experienced enough with high end gear to know if something worked or it didn't. I have used the Mesa SW cabs with Aguilar, GK, SWR, and a variety of Mesa heads (including Carbines, Walkabouts, and the SW 800, WD, and TT models). IME the SW cabs play very well with other heads and that was tested during the design process.

I would see how the cab works for you in other rooms before just writing it off. You really seemed to paint a picture of "the room from hell acoustically". We've all been in a few and sometimes no combination of knob positions and/or gear placement gets you anything more than barely tolerable sound. I've even seen good pro-sound techs struggle and fail to find the right answer for some venues.

I played a large (over 5000 square foot with like a 40 foot high roof) barn type venue a few weeks back with concrete floors and metal walls and roof. I truly struggled with a SW 112/115 rig and a TT800 to get something that worked in close and out in the room. Folks were dancing and having fun so I guess it wasn't offensive, but it was far from an evening where I actually enjoyed my sound.

That 212 is a fine cab and my recommendation would be to give it another shot in a less frustrating venue. It may not be the right cab for you, but I wouldn't conclude that based only on a single experience in a room that no other cab might have done any better in. I hope that helps at least provide another perspective.

 

[Fingerz]

First let me fully acknowledge that you heard what you heard and are obviously experienced enough with high end gear to know if something worked or it didn't. I have used the Mesa SW cabs with Aguilar, GK, SWR, and a variety of Mesa heads (including Carbines, Walkabouts, and the SW 800, WD, and TT models). IME the SW cabs play very well with other heads and that was tested during the design process.

I would see how the cab works for you in other rooms before just writing it off. You really seemed to paint a picture of "the room from hell acoustically". We've all been in a few and sometimes no combination of knob positions and/or gear placement gets you anything more than barely tolerable sound. I've even seen good pro-sound techs struggle and fail to find the right answer for some venues.

I played a large (over 5000 square foot with like a 40 foot high roof) barn type venue a few weeks back with concrete floors and metal walls and roof. I truly struggled with a SW 112/115 rig and a TT800 to get something that worked in close and out in the room. Folks were dancing and having fun so I guess it wasn't offensive, but it was far from an evening where I actually enjoyed my sound.

That 212 is a fine cab and my recommendation would be to give it another shot in a less frustrating venue. It may not be the right cab for you, but I wouldn't conclude that based only on a single experience in a room that no other cab might have done any better in. I hope that helps at least provide another perspective.

Yeah really helpful, thank you both. I agree. I didn't wish to sound naive, or petulant. I too really didn't enjoy that gig I did for sonic reasons outside of my control, it was pretty awful and as a pro player I just felt bad for not being able to provide something more pleasant for my fellow band members to lean on... And perhaps my ego is dented as it's the first time I haven't been able to rescue my sound.

As you can tell, I've been mulling this over a lot, and eliminating the amp aspect is really reassuring. The main reason for my impatience and the stress that I think I struggle to hide, is that the cab can be returned if I try it and don't like it. I transported it in a cover, didn't put it down anywhere other than the stage, and turned it up to '4' on my head. I feel as though it's a bit of a liberty to take longer on my decision in regards to the return element, if that's possible (and they don't check here!), or I stick and if I do sell it I lose out. I could really love it, and I think they are incredible cabs, and completely agree with the sage advice to not be a lemon and do more than one gig that isn't in a horrendous room. Apols for the impatience, it's the time scale factor pushing me to ask some seemingly silly questions to come to a decision.

It's definitely a beautiful cab. Your experiences are really helpful to me.

 

[agedhorse]

I don't have an HPF pedal, but mainly due to the TFunk having a similar ability built in - it's one of the features that has kept me so loyal to that amp. The "Timbre" control, gives you the option to go both ways from a central 12 noon starting point.
It's always given me the ability to sort out a useable sound in a difficult room in seconds. For me with gear the ability to 'never sound bad' has been my mantra, over e.g.having face melting tone once in a while when you get the right room..

My old rig, normally I'd run at 11am/11.30am, with the subway I got round to about 1pm and still wasn't achieving the goal of clarity, and my slap tone was still very subdued. It's got me spooked tbh.


One thing I wonder, is whether the subway cab is voiced for the subway heads? AFAIA on reflection most guys are using the mesa amps with their cabs? Do experience a notable difference with other amps, or ever tried?

To clarify, the timbre control is not a HPF, it's a first order bandpass filter with similarities to typical mid control (I haven't calculated the frquency of the control but on casual inspection appears to be in the low mid range).

There is however a fixed 3rd order HPF that appears to be right around 30-35Hz which also affects the DI out.

The Subway cabinets are voiced as a stand alone cabinet and the amps are too, but each with a flavor reminiscent of the models they were inspired by. The D-800 and 800+ are the most neutral of the line. Subway cabinets do not depend on the amp's voicing and the amps do not depend on the cabinet's voicing.

 

[Fingerz]

To clarify, the timbre control is not a HPF, it's a first order bandpass filter with similarities to typical mid control (I haven't calculated the frquency of the control but on casual inspection appears to be in the low mid range).

There is however a fixed 3rd order HPF that appears to be right around 30-35Hz which also affects the DI out.

The Subway cabinets are voiced as a stand alone cabinet and the amps are too, but each with a flavor reminiscent of the models they were inspired by. The D-800 and 800+ are the most neutral of the line. Subway cabinets do not depend on the amp's voicing and the amps do not depend on the cabinet's voicing.

Cool thanks. Great to clarify and check over that Re amps. Interesting to read about your knowledge of the frequencies and filters, I should have a read through your posts elsewhere I'd learn a lot for sure.


As I say, it's always had the audible impact of having a similar effect, to a HPF, but appreciate there were just too many variables, and that it is not a HPF.

 

[squish]

Don’t take it hard that you didn’t get an amazing sound the first time you used your new gear.
The first time I played my SW212 and D800+ was live on a big loud indoor stage. I tried dialing up tone control to noon and it just didn’t sound good to me at all. I felt the drivers were too low for the loud stage so I (impatiently) got a SW112 to put in top. The next big show I had learned more about EQing and had that third 12 closer to my ears and it was fantastic. I’m not saying you need to get an additional speaker cab since the 212 is very capable. But learn how to use your amp’s EQ.

 

[anthony w Jaber]

Does anyone think Mesa will put out a 4x12 version of this cab and not the powerhouse version. I love big cabs not the lifting part but the feeling you get when you have a massive cab behind you in a big gig. Not complaining about the 2x12 it holds it’s own even with a lot of watts going through it.

 

[agedhorse]

Does anyone think Mesa will put out a 4x12 version of this cab and not the powerhouse version. I love big cabs not the lifting part but the feeling you get when you have a massive cab behind you in a big gig. Not complaining about the 2x12 it holds it’s own even with a lot of watts going through it.

Probably not, but stacking 2 x 212’s is the next best thing and each is one half the weight of a 412.

 

[Jim C]

I don't have an HPF pedal, but mainly due to the TFunk having a similar ability built in - it's one of the features that has kept me so loyal to that amp. The "Timbre" control, gives you the option to go both ways from a central 12 noon starting point.
It's always given me the ability to sort out a useable sound in a difficult room in seconds. For me with gear the ability to 'never sound bad' has been my mantra, over e.g.having face melting tone once in a while when you get the right room..

I had a similar mud night 3 weeks ago but with different gear (GB 2x12; SWR SM400). The 4 bands of quasi parametric EQ were not nearly as useful as an outboard HPF pedal.
I REALLY like the built in HPF on the TT800. Very interesting with what can be down to the low end with HPF, bass boost, and bass EQ controls.
I'm playing the same room with the same band next week and am anxious to see how the TT800 does.

 

[anthony w Jaber]

Probably not, but stacking 2 x 212’s is the next best thing and each is one half the weight of a 412.

A friend of mine got three stacked on there side for massive gigs I agree on the weight. Personally play with a Mesa walkabout combo 12 and use the 2x12 for larger gigs are works super well. Love the comfortable head on that combo 9/10 times I use the head with just the 2x12 and the combo by itself for coffee gigs. Out door gigs is when I break out the combo and the cab. Love Mesa.

 

[Al Kraft]

I REALLY like the built in HPF on the TT800. Very interesting with what can be down to the low end with HPF, bass boost, and bass EQ controls.

This is the new trick that has struck me in recent years as I played around with the SW heads. I used to think of a HPF as essential for something like our SWR heads as a utility item that did one thing and did it well. It wasn't until I started combining the SW deep switch, bass EQ and variable HPF (in perhaps counterintuitive ways) that I realized the "HPF protection part" was always covered and I now had another tone shaper in the mix. I guess I could have been smarter about that years ago, I just wasn't!

 

[Jim C]

This is the new trick that has struck me in recent years as I played around with the SW heads. I used to think of a HPF as essential for something like our SWR heads as a utility item that did one thing and did it well. It wasn't until I started combining the SW deep switch, bass EQ and variable HPF (in perhaps counterintuitive ways) that I realized the "HPF protection part" was always covered and I now had another tone shaper in the mix. I guess I could have been smarter about that years ago, I just wasn't!

Exactly my experience! Remember back to the dark ages (about 5-10 years ago) when HPF's started to appear as outboard gear on something other than 19" rack EQ's?

 

[Al Kraft]

A friend of mine got three stacked on there side for massive gigs I agree on the weight. Personally play with a Mesa walkabout combo 12 and use the 2x12 for larger gigs are works super well. Love the comfortable head on that combo 9/10 times I use the head with just the 2x12 and the combo by itself for coffee gigs. Out door gigs is when I break out the combo and the cab. Love Mesa.

If I'm reading this right, just be careful with that WA head...you don't want to be running it below 4 Ohms, and certainly not in outdoor situations where you are pushing it hard. FWIW, the WA and a good 4 Ohm 212 cab sounds mighty nice to my ears!