Need basic advice on building a sound system.

[trackskinz]

I have always been "just the bassist", but with the new band I am essentially BL, and in charge of the PA.
Typical venue is your average bar, 100 people

What I have:
-alesis 12 channel mixer
-2 200W Harbinger mains, stands and cables

What I need:
-more power on the mains (how much?)
-monitors (powered or unpowered w/ power amp?)
-feedback limiter?
-equalizer?

I just barely know what I am even talking about here, and of course money IS a consideration.

Help!

 

[s0c9]

You have enough power there for a wine bar.. you need more.
So... what's your budget?
That's the determining factor as you WILL get all kinds of "you need this" responses if you don't put a BUDGET out there as the stopping point.

A VERY basic PA system will need to support vocals only.
If you want to put other instruments (kick, guitar, bass..) you'll need to factor in more wattage, possibly subs.

ARe you looking at stage monitors or IEM's?? Powered stage mons are easier to work with, but that a whole topic on it's own! 10", 12" ? Brand? BUDGET??

Don't waste $$ on fbe's (feedback eliminators). They mask a bad mix/setup.
Separate EQ's are really only needed for stage monitors and even then, you can get by without - IF you control your stage volume. Board EQ is generally fine for FOH.

It all adds up...
Give us a $$$ amount to work with.. and also go visit/read the lab lounge over at prosoundweb .. LAB Lounge
They won't be "nice" about your needs, but they will be brutal and HONEST with their advice!

 

[trackskinz]

You have enough power there for a wine bar.. you need more.
So... what's your budget?
That's the determining factor as you WILL get all kinds of "you need this" responses if you don't put a BUDGET out there as the stopping point.

A VERY basic PA system will need to support vocals only.
If you want to put other instruments (kick, guitar, bass..) you'll need to factor in more wattage, possibly subs.

ARe you looking at stage monitors or IEM's?? Powered stage mons are easier to work with, but that a whole topic on it's own! 10", 12" ? Brand? BUDGET??

Don't waste $$ on fbe's (feedback eliminators). They mask a bad mix/setup.
Separate EQ's are really only needed for stage monitors and even then, you can get by without - IF you control your stage volume. Board EQ is generally fine for FOH.

It all adds up...
Give us a $$$ amount to work with.. and also go visit/read the lab lounge over at prosoundweb .. LAB Lounge
They won't be "nice" about your needs, but they will be brutal and HONEST with their advice!

I was looking at starting with:

-Mains: GC has Harbinger 600W powered mains for about 625 a pair - are these any good?
-Monitors - Kustom 10s or 12s for 50-80 each at MF
-power amp: I have no idea what I need or which brands to look for or avoid

$ is going to be pay as I go for a while.... I want honesty, not "nice"

 

[trackskinz]

What about something like this? Invalid Link Removed

 

[trackskinz]

What about something like this? Invalid Link Removed

Or this: Yamaha MG82CX V2115 PA Package | Musician's Friend

 

[seamonkey]

On Mains, lows eat up a lot o f power, even if it's only for vocals. Put on the rumble filters on the channels, and cut the lows when it's not needed. Sometimes though you still might want to mic a kick, or keyboard.
So you might have enough power now if you just ad a powered subwoofer. What you have now might work fine for mids and lows.

For monitors, look at headphone splitter amps and use IEM. Everybody in the band buys their own (decent pairs for $100)
Then you may never have a problem with feedback.

Power amps, stick with name brand. Crown, Peavey, Crest, QSC, Behringer, Carvin, ... they're really sonically all the same. Harbinger is a GC house brand not a name brand. Stick with the name brands for powered subs also.

 

[s0c9]

I was looking at starting with:

-Mains: GC has Harbinger 600W powered mains for about 625 a pair - are these any good?
-Monitors - Kustom 10s or 12s for 50-80 each at MF
-power amp: I have no idea what I need or which brands to look for or avoid

$ is going to be pay as I go for a while.... I want honesty, not "nice"

I have no experience with Harbinger, but they are a GC brand replacing the entry-level Behringer gear they no longer carry. I would NOT buy Behringer speakers (do the research on them).
I've used/worked with both Kustom 10/12" powered and passive wedges... they're passable, but crap out at volume.

IF I were starting from scratch on a BAYG (buy as you go) approach, I'd keep it simple and start with decent mains.
Sell what you have and put that into something that will last..
Powered/passive work out to be about the same when you factor in a power amp needs.
Yamaha have been solid forever.. 12" mains will be OK.
The powered DBR12's are 1/2 the cost of the DXR12's, but (i believe) the cheapest they make.
The workhorse club series - SV12's ($350 ea)- are cheaper, but passive and need an amp - which would need to produce 400-600w PER channel at 8-Ohms. Behringer EP series amps are OK, but throw-away.. to expensive to repair. The EP4000 is $349.

Build from there.. mics, cables, stands, etc.. all add up.

 

[modulusman]

Buy a pair of Yamaha dbr series speakers. Invalid Link Removed or maybe Electro voice Invalid Link Removed to use for main speakers. Maybe you can use the harbingers you have now for monitors. All the other stuff you linked is junk.

 

[morgansterne]

Having everyone on wired in ear monitors is a terrible idea. Good luck engaging the crowd when you're all tethered to your spots and tripping over cables. I've done gigs with IEM's where the drums were not mic'ed, but guitars, keyboard, and bass MUST be plugged into the mixer if anyone in the band uses IEM's. Your mixer's not big enough for that.


I believe the gear one/kustom package was exactly what we used to use at rehearsal. The gear one PA head seemed fine but I didn't like the speakers. We never used it at a gig.
You didn't say if your harbinger mains are active or passive or what size. 200 watts is very suitable for monitors but awfully low powered for mains.

One sound guy I frequently work with uses peavey pvxp10 powered monitors, and they sound really good. You can daisy chain them off of a single mixer aux ouput. He used them one time as mains when combined with subs, plenty of power even in an outside venue.

Low end in your monitors clutters up the stage sound and robs your monitors of headroom. If you find a power amp that has an adjustable high pass filter (like my old mackie), you might not need an external EQ for monitors. Feedback eliminators are not necessary at this point.
We have a behringer xr18 mixer, which at $700 is a pretty big investment, but you'll never need effects or external EQ. Just ipad or android tablets to run it.

 

[TimmyP]

Don't buy a PA. Why? Well, the problem with most any PA system is that you are always going to be upgrading it, spending more and more money. When you sell something to get money for the upgrade, you'll get half what you paid for the thing - PA gear is not an investment. It's much like pouring sand down a rat hole. Plus you have to store it (it eats up someone's garage or basement space, or you have to rent a U-Store-It). You have to haul it (gas, and maybe even a trailer or vehicle other than what you'd have otherwise). You have to set it up and tear it down (or pay someone to do so), fix it when it break$, and run it or pay someone to do so. Every dollar you spend will effectively disappear into depreciation or labor. As such, you should use that money to get yourself a kick-ass system for which you never have to lift a finger beyond dialing the telephone: Hire out. In some areas you can get a system that cost $30,000, with a skilled operator, for peanuts.

 

[tubster]

Don't buy a PA. Why? Well, the problem with most any PA system is that you are always going to be upgrading it, spending more and more money. When you sell something to get money for the upgrade, you'll get half what you paid for the thing - PA gear is not an investment. It's much like pouring sand down a rat hole. Plus you have to store it (it eats up someone's garage or basement space, or you have to rent a U-Store-It). You have to haul it (gas, and maybe even a trailer or vehicle other than what you'd have otherwise). You have to set it up and tear it down (or pay someone to do so), fix it when it break$, and run it or pay someone to do so. Every dollar you spend will effectively disappear into depreciation or labor. As such, you should use that money to get yourself a kick-ass system for which you never have to lift a finger beyond dialing the telephone: Hire out. In some areas you can get a system that cost $30,000, with a skilled operator, for peanuts.

I have always been "just the bassist", but with the new band I am essentially BL, and in charge of the PA.
Typical venue is your average bar, 100 people

What I have:
-alesis 12 channel mixer
-2 200W Harbinger mains, stands and cables

What I need:
-more power on the mains (how much?)
-monitors (powered or unpowered w/ power amp?)
-feedback limiter?
-equalizer?

I just barely know what I am even talking about here, and of course money IS a consideration.

Help!

I would say that you move the Harbinger to Monitor duty and pick up some decent Mains - QSC K12, Yamaha DXR, JBL PRX etc. The Harbingers I have used just do not cut it. If you are on a strict budget, you could look at the ALTO Pros too. As ever, it is what you need to do with this system - for vocals, use the system described. If you want to do more, e.g bass and drums, you might need to think about a sub. Forget about any extra gizmos - feedback, EQ etc at this stage and get the basics right.

Now living here in Spain, I see bands use Behringer and put everything through them and sound tolerably good so you do not need "Rolls Royce" gear for sure. Good luck!

 

[1954bassman]

Don't buy a PA. Why? Well, the problem with most any PA system is that you are always going to be upgrading it, spending more and more money. When you sell something to get money for the upgrade, you'll get half what you paid for the thing - PA gear is not an investment. It's much like pouring sand down a rat hole. Plus you have to store it (it eats up someone's garage or basement space, or you have to rent a U-Store-It). You have to haul it (gas, and maybe even a trailer or vehicle other than what you'd have otherwise). You have to set it up and tear it down (or pay someone to do so), fix it when it break$, and run it or pay someone to do so. Every dollar you spend will effectively disappear into depreciation or labor. As such, you should use that money to get yourself a kick-ass system for which you never have to lift a finger beyond dialing the telephone: Hire out. In some areas you can get a system that cost $30,000, with a skilled operator, for peanuts.

This

 

[nogoodwithnames]

Invalid Link Removed

Can't say enough about the zlx speakers. Seriously good and inexpensive. I actually got mine from proaudioland.com with a 20% off promo code.

 

[Bodeanly]

We are three piece rock and I have no experience with anything else. In our case, in rooms with 100 people cap., the only thing that's ever gone through the PA (that we've had to provide) is vocals. If I were you, I'd use your 200W Harbingers as monitors and get some 500W mains. Use this PA for rehearsals and smaller gigs (vocals and kick). Hire out for anything larger.

 

[stingrayK]

I use Mackie Thumps 15A powered for mains. They have been awesome and are reasonably priced. I like their flexibility. You can use just one with no mixer for a coffee shop performance. You can use them together with your board for bigger venues. I also use an Alto powered sub for the bottom end.

 

[modulusman]

I use Mackie Thumps 15A powered for mains. They have been awesome and are reasonably priced. I like their flexibility. You can use just one with no mixer for a coffee shop performance. You can use them together with your board for bigger venues. I also use an Alto powered sub for the bottom end.

You had to be a chump to buy thumps. Anyone who could read a spec sheet would have ran away from those speakers. The newer version is suppose to be improved.

 

[s0c9]

Don't buy a PA. Why? Well, the problem with most any PA system is that you are always going to be upgrading it, spending more and more money. When you sell something to get money for the upgrade, you'll get half what you paid for the thing - PA gear is not an investment. It's much like pouring sand down a rat hole. Plus you have to store it (it eats up someone's garage or basement space, or you have to rent a U-Store-It). You have to haul it (gas, and maybe even a trailer or vehicle other than what you'd have otherwise). You have to set it up and tear it down (or pay someone to do so), fix it when it break$, and run it or pay someone to do so. Every dollar you spend will effectively disappear into depreciation or labor. As such, you should use that money to get yourself a kick-ass system for which you never have to lift a finger beyond dialing the telephone: Hire out. In some areas you can get a system that cost $30,000, with a skilled operator, for peanuts.

Timmy... I know that both you and I (Steve O. on prosoundweb) can attest to the above statements as being fact !! LOL .. Been there, done that.. got a load of [paid for] quality gear that is basically only good for boat anchors now.

The challenge I faced (and I know you have too) is that folks like the OP are not making enough per gig to pay ME enough to haul out my $30k worth of PA to a bar/club venue that can get by with their backline and 12" speakers on sticks w/ vocals only.

Without delving into a host of socio-economic reasons for why things "are" for live music, the OP's band is not going to pay me the $300 (that I need to make it worth my time) if that's all they are making that gig. Some might (very few?), I know I wouldn't. If a band is making $1000 a night, then $300 is a reasonable expense for PA rental, but that still leaves the OP looking for a PA, and I'm not even going to consider hauling my "B" rig trailer for $150 (or less)!

That (IMHO) is what drives the purchase of PA gear... there's no-one willing to provide for that level of compensation.

 

[Bill Whitehurst]

As with most gear, used can get you a lot of bang for the buck.
My mains are a pair of Mackie SRM450s.
I got the first one from a guy that thought it was broken
and didn't want to take it with him when he moved.
It turned out to be OK.
That made me want a second one, which I scored used for $250!
You should be able to find used ones all day long for $300 or less.

 

[DavC]

please don't buy the real low end crap .. it usually won't last , and be worthless upon resale ...

if you really want to buy a PA ... ( been there , done that ) go get a loan and buy some better stuff ...

midrange/mid-priced gear will work fine ... it doesn't have to be fancy ...

you always need a good bit of Headroom ( extra power )

I always used subs to keep things clean and sounding nice and full at any volume ...

don't skimp on the mains ... if anything , skimp on monitors ...

a good all in one box is the DBX PX driverack kinda processor ... It has crossover, comps, limiters , Eqs , all in 1 unit ... but you Do need to learn how all those things work !!

don't rush into things ... maybe rent out a sound guy with a PA ... you can then learn as you go by seeing what they do and the stuff they use .. !??

 

[modulusman]

The OP wanting to buy a PA isn't a bad thing. He would probably need something for band rehearsals. Whether or not he will ever need to buy a big PA is another story.