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Need help can't understand

I

icebolt99

May 22, 2013
15
0
#1
from this book I am reading it says that a sharp or flat placed in front affects every note on the same line or space in line that it measures. it is automatically cancelled out in the next measure.
Can some explain I really don't understand.
 
#2
Is it Hal-Leonard by any chance? If so, great book. Have the first one myself.

Anyways, what they mean is this: if you look at a single measure, let's say that there's two half notes, and the first one has a # (sharp) sign, then the next note is automatically sharp as well, even if there's no #. This can be cancelled out by having a natural sign (somewhat like a pointy b) next to the second note. Then it would be A sharp, followed by A, for example. Without the natural sign, it would be A sharp, A sharp.
 
#3
Yes, the sharp or flat (accidental) lasts the whole measure. If the composer wants to cancel it out, they'll use a natural sign in front of the note. If I was writing something out, and there was an accidental at beginning and end of a measure, with a lot of notes in between, I'd probably write in the last one just to be nice.

The wikipedia article explains everything well, and the section on "courtesy accidentals" might be helpful for you if you need to write something out.
 
#5
Some context is needed here for the full picture. Any sharps or flats designated by the key signature are to be observed, unless the notes are clearly marked with a natural sign. Due to the large number of out of key chords and/or key changes in music, it is common to retain a single key signature for extensive portions of a piece of music - thus the need to add accidentals for certain measures.

Key signature sharps and flats are not designated in the written score; they are assumed from the key signature. If, however, the need arises to add a sharp or flat to a measure, that note, if repeated in that measure, remains sharped or flatted as first designated in that measure, unless a natural sign is written for it. These "added" accidentals expire each measure. If a note must be sharped or flatted for additional measures, the convention is to designate the note as sharped or flatted for each measure that the note needs to be altered.

I hope this makes sense. It does to me.
 
#8
And, unless I misunderstand (been a long time since I've been in class), what you quoted is not complete. It says that further notes on that line or space will all be affected (within that measure), but, unless I do not recall correctly, all of that note will be affected. IOW's, if a C3 has a sharp on it, wouldn't a C4 in the same measure also be sharp without adding another notation?

Anybody?

Nope - see below for how this should work. BB
 
#9
Clarification - more often than not, accidental sharps or flats apply (for the whole duration of the bar) ONLY to the line or space where they appear and not to any notes an octave up or down in the same measure. This is the usual convention. If I was writing a bar of music out where such notes occurred, though, I would definitely include the appropriate sharp, natural or flat signs where there was any possibility of misinterpretation. In my opinion, doing that is safer and also makes the bar easier to read.
 
#10
Look at the bar of music attached here. I put these notes into Sibelius software as C, E, G, C and then added the accidental to the first quarter note. Sibelius immediately added a cautionary natural sign to the fourth note.

I then removed the natural sign (as strictly speaking it's unnecessary, although very prudent) and when play is pressed the software correctly plays the notes C#, E, G, C (natural). If you wanted a high C# as the last note, you'd need to include a sharp sign at that point.

Maybe I should add that if there was another low note (of any duration) on the second space of the staff in that bar, the first accidental would mean that you'd play that note sharp unless a natural sign was added, as stated earlier in the thread. Once you got past bar 1, the accidental has expired and you should play all naturals as there's no key signature indication otherwise - until, of course, you encounter more accidentals or a key signature change.
 

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#13
bassybill said:
Clarification - more often than not, accidental sharps or flats apply ONLY to the line or space where they appear and not to any notes an octave up or down in the same measure. This is the usual convention. If I was writing a bar of music out where such notes occurred, though, I would definitely include the appropriate sharp, natural or flat signs where there was any possibility of misinterpretation. In my opinion, doing that is safer and also makes the bar easier to read.
Click to expand...

Be aware that this is NOT a hard rule. Some composers' or publishers' use of accidentals will apply to an octave displacement, some won't.

Sometimes the "rule", for a particular piece, will be included.
 
#14
Stick_Player said:
Be aware that this is NOT a hard rule. Some composers' or publishers' use of accidentals will apply to an octave displacement, some won't.

Sometimes the "rule", for a particular piece, will be included.
Click to expand...
Quite right - it's the usual convention and pretty widespread, but it isn't universal (although I think most score writing software, like Sibelius, would apply it by default).

Again, this just makes a good case for using cautionary/courtesy accidentals in such examples.
 
#15
Stick_Player said:
Be aware that this is NOT a hard rule. Some composers' or publishers' use of accidentals will apply to an octave displacement, some won't.

Sometimes the "rule", for a particular piece, will be included.
Click to expand...

Totally agreed. Especially in bass parts like written walking bass or so.
 
#17
INTP said:
This is interesting. I'm sure that I was taught in H.S. orchestra that accidentals applied to the note and the octaves that followed within the measure. Either that, or my middle aged memory is less than perfect... :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_(music)
Click to expand...

No not your memory, that is the way i was taught in the 60/70s.....and still use.
But it seems not all follow this simple rule for what ever reason. :eek:
 
#19
INTP said:
This is interesting. I'm sure that I was taught in H.S. orchestra that accidentals applied to the note and the octaves that followed within the measure. Either that, or my middle aged memory is less than perfect... :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think there's more at work here than it just not being consistent, I think this is a change over time. At least, that would explain both of us remembering it that way from the same time period.

More importantly, we now know the current practice, and that's what really matters.
 
#20
bassybill said:
I think it's because they follow the OTHER simple rule instead. ;)
Click to expand...

LOL point taking Bill, i suppose it may have been on the not so strict definition of what constitutes an octave.

If the accidental only applies to the note with in the octave then is it implying, for example, that and octave above C is C, but an octave above C# is not C#.

Now i am cool with either way, but i would like to see a uniform use to take out any confusion of what constitutes where the octave starts and finishes and stop any confusion. But with software being more and more in use it may be not possible to make it simple and uniform as it will be the best selling programme that may ultimatly make the decision....a bit like when i type colour in some programmes it gets highlighted to say it is spelt wrong.....at some point color will take over as the correct spelling.:)
 

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