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Need In-Ear Monitors
- Thread starter elocke2009
- Start date
Yeah, it kinda depends on what you want. I use the levels & meters on my ART headphone amp to set levels.
One thing I like about the jump audio unit is that it has a belt pack, which keeps the single cable out of the way and gives me an easy way to adjust the volume in the middle of a song.
Of course if you hate belt packs or don't need to adjust the volume much, the Rockon unitnis probably a better choice. Personally I prefer having a volume knob on me, but I can see why others would hate it. It also makes it less likely that anything will get accidentally unplugged as all the strain is taken by the belt box, which has top quality locking connectors. Looking at the Rockon, I'd be slightly concerned that my earbuds might get unplugged in the middle of some rocking out. Might not be an issue for you at all though.
If you get the Rockon, let us know what you think. I like the jump audio a great deal and will stick with it, but I'm always open to trying something new.
Relatively inexpensive hardwired system. Yamaha PA head with separate channel mixed monitor output to SM Pro-Audio Q-Amp with four individual volume outputs, four (4) hardwired extension cables, IEM of your choice.
Here is a link to the SM Pro-Audio Q-Amp, a righteous piece of equipment:
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Here is a link to the SM Pro-Audio Q-Amp, a righteous piece of equipment:
Invalid Link Removed
A little sidenote to the topic. I know not very many people are able to take advantage of this, but if you can ever get to NAMM lots of the IE manufacturers do free ear molds and usually offer a significant discount to their normal prices. My buddy got some Ultimate Ears UE7 pros with the ambient feature and triple drivers there for a killer price.
any of you guys going wireless, is there a wireless transmitter that can send more than one mix?? for instance, one rackmount unit that can take inputs from 4 aux sends, and send a different mix on 4 different wireless channels so we all get our own mix?
I have not been able to find such a product but it seems reasonable that it would exist.
I have not been able to find such a product but it seems reasonable that it would exist.
Aviom stuff sounds similar, but not wireless. They take all the inputs, give everyone the ability to make their own mixes if I understand the concept correctly.
The problem is to send a separate mix, you need a separate frequency to transmit on, i.e. a separate transmitter. So no, probably nothing like that on the market, maybe specialty pro setup for touring bands.
But I doubt it. Need 4 mixes? get 4 transmitters. willing to share 1 mix btw 4 people? Get 1 transmitter and 4 receivers. That's the economical solution for IEM companies, rather than designing and building 4 xmitters in one chassis and trying to sell that to a very limited market and trying to make money doing it.
It'd be like making a doubleneck Pbass/Jbass guitar for Fender.
Randy
That is one advantage to a hard wired system. The ART unit that I have allows for up to six people to have IEM, each with their own level and mix between three channels : (left, right, and each channel's individual "more me" aux). I have a totally different mix than my singer.
I think Shure and Sennheiser do double transmitters, its pretty much just 2 transmitters in 1 body though.
Liam
Ok, thanks guys. I'm using the wired IEM and between that and my guitar cable, i'm feeling tethered like I can't move. I started researching the wireless options and could not believe how expensive they are for IEM's or even just to go wireless on the guitar.
I think another good product would be a belt pack that handles both guitar signal out, and IEM signal in. It plugs into your guitar and transmits that signal to the receiver box with an out there to your amp. The receiver box is also a transmitter, receives signal from the aux send of the board via a set of inputs and transmits that signal to the belt pack. The belt pack has a headphone out and you plug your IEM's in there. It's one box, one belt pack, but handles double duty....making everything very simple.
I'd buy it. OF course it would probably not be cheap, as nothing cool ever is.
I think another good product would be a belt pack that handles both guitar signal out, and IEM signal in. It plugs into your guitar and transmits that signal to the receiver box with an out there to your amp. The receiver box is also a transmitter, receives signal from the aux send of the board via a set of inputs and transmits that signal to the belt pack. The belt pack has a headphone out and you plug your IEM's in there. It's one box, one belt pack, but handles double duty....making everything very simple.
I'd buy it. OF course it would probably not be cheap, as nothing cool ever is.
interesting.
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not happy about 5.5ms latency. is that pretty normal for a wireless system? it seems like a lot.
Invalid Link Removed
not happy about 5.5ms latency. is that pretty normal for a wireless system? it seems like a lot.
nevermind. you have to buy 2 for each mix. one for receive and one for transmit. neat idea though, possibly for home theater or wireless streaming audio from computer to home entertainment system....etc.
Here's my homemade IEM story.
We're playing this club last night, very small stage, about 10 ft in the air, surrounded by a low wall. Basically the bar wraps around the stage on the ground floor, we're 10 feet up, and there's a 2nd floor like a loft that also surrounds the band. Kind of cool idea, just too small. Especially for bass, drums, keys, guitar, sax and trumpet player.
Drums take up a lot of available space. Keys take up a bunch too. He's not using an amp to save space. Guitar isn't using an amp, either, just a pedal processor, so he isn't taking much floor space.
I like having at least a small amp to monitor so I'm not at the mercy of the sound guy. But there's really no room. Ok... I'll just take my spare MB-1 preamp and just go through the board.
A 2 piece stops playing at 9, they have to get off stage, we have to get on and sound checked and start at 10. Of course, sound guy fools around for 45 min trying to get the wireless mics to work for the lead singers. Finally gets that working, key's on, bass drum, snare drum, ok, guitar, sax and trumpet mics working.
Bass, well its in the mains. I'm not hearing anything in the monitors though. Mains are all over the club, not by the band though so its almost impossible to hear it from the mains.
To add insult to injury, there's a mic feeding back on the low end. When that happens, what little hint of bass I heard before disappears as he cuts the bass guitar to stop the feedback. Too bad its not the bass feeding back though...
I dime my preamp, crank the bass, thinking if I can get enough signal, maybe what little bit is being fed to the monitors will be enough, and he'll turn only it down in the mains. Maybe he'll get the hint.
No such luck. He just cuts the attenuator.
So the entire first set, I play completely by braille. Didn't hear a note I played all set, with a couple exceptions when everyone else stopped for a break and I could tell there was bass guitar in the mains for a moment until everyone else came in.
Sound guy comes around on the break, I resist the urge to kill him with my bare hands. "I need bass in the monitor". "Its in there". "No its not, actually". "I've been running sound for 20 years....." "That's pretty impressive, but you're not standing on this stage in front of this monitor, where there is no bass guitar coming out of. Knobs don't tell you what it sounds like up here." "Don't give me attitude, I'll walk out". "
(bite my tongue bite my tongue bite my tongue) I'm not giving you attitude, I'm yelling because the DJ is loud as hell, I'm telling you there's a problem, and the problem is there's no bass in the monitors".
So he takes me to the board and shows me the monitor send, its about where the channels are. See? See what? I don't care where the knobs are, maybe there's a problem with the monitor send on that channel. Is the bass channel on? Are the monitors on now? He un-mutes my channel, twirls the knob from around 10 o-clock to about noon, a good 20% boost to my monitor send. "Follow me to the stage".
So with only the dj playing, no other instruments, I get up there, strap on the bass and start playing. I can hear it, as long as I get on my knees and stick my ear right by the monitor. He's going "See? I can hear it". "So, AFTER you crank it an additional 20%, with no other instruments playing, and I get on my knees and stick my head in the speaker, I can get a decent level, and that sounds like it was right to you?" "I can hear it". I can hear vocals, guitar, keys coming out of that monitor just fine. But he's been a soundman for 20 years, he must be right. I guess the problem is that the bass guitar is in there, but I just don't recognize it when I hear it... I've only been a bass player for 35 years.
So he's not going to be of any help here.
Time to MacGuyver something. Take 1 stereo male rca-3.5mm stereo cable. Take 1 stereo female rca to 1/4" mono phone adapter (headphone amp is stereo, got to drive it with 1/4 mono phone plug). Take one headphone amp in an Altoids box. Take 1 set of Radius Atomic Bass earphones. Connect it all together. Theres enough bleed through the Atomic Bass that I can hear the monitors, drums, but its pretty good isolation. Turn the bass up just enough to hear, but not enough to drown out the ambient sound of the monitors bleeding through the earphones.... voila! In ear monitors for bass.
MacGuyver can kiss my butt. I didn't even need duct tape.
I have those connectors and the headphone amp to use with my digital recorder DR07, like to listen after a break and adjust placement/levels. Might need the headphone amp if there's a DJ on breaks and its loud. The connectors allow me to hook the DR07 to tape feeds on the board if possible to not use the on board mics.
Or I might need to MacGuyver an IEM..
Randy
We're playing this club last night, very small stage, about 10 ft in the air, surrounded by a low wall. Basically the bar wraps around the stage on the ground floor, we're 10 feet up, and there's a 2nd floor like a loft that also surrounds the band. Kind of cool idea, just too small. Especially for bass, drums, keys, guitar, sax and trumpet player.
Drums take up a lot of available space. Keys take up a bunch too. He's not using an amp to save space. Guitar isn't using an amp, either, just a pedal processor, so he isn't taking much floor space.
I like having at least a small amp to monitor so I'm not at the mercy of the sound guy. But there's really no room. Ok... I'll just take my spare MB-1 preamp and just go through the board.
A 2 piece stops playing at 9, they have to get off stage, we have to get on and sound checked and start at 10. Of course, sound guy fools around for 45 min trying to get the wireless mics to work for the lead singers. Finally gets that working, key's on, bass drum, snare drum, ok, guitar, sax and trumpet mics working.
Bass, well its in the mains. I'm not hearing anything in the monitors though. Mains are all over the club, not by the band though so its almost impossible to hear it from the mains.
To add insult to injury, there's a mic feeding back on the low end. When that happens, what little hint of bass I heard before disappears as he cuts the bass guitar to stop the feedback. Too bad its not the bass feeding back though...
I dime my preamp, crank the bass, thinking if I can get enough signal, maybe what little bit is being fed to the monitors will be enough, and he'll turn only it down in the mains. Maybe he'll get the hint.
No such luck. He just cuts the attenuator.
So the entire first set, I play completely by braille. Didn't hear a note I played all set, with a couple exceptions when everyone else stopped for a break and I could tell there was bass guitar in the mains for a moment until everyone else came in.
Sound guy comes around on the break, I resist the urge to kill him with my bare hands. "I need bass in the monitor". "Its in there". "No its not, actually". "I've been running sound for 20 years....." "That's pretty impressive, but you're not standing on this stage in front of this monitor, where there is no bass guitar coming out of. Knobs don't tell you what it sounds like up here." "Don't give me attitude, I'll walk out". "
(bite my tongue bite my tongue bite my tongue) I'm not giving you attitude, I'm yelling because the DJ is loud as hell, I'm telling you there's a problem, and the problem is there's no bass in the monitors". So he takes me to the board and shows me the monitor send, its about where the channels are. See? See what? I don't care where the knobs are, maybe there's a problem with the monitor send on that channel. Is the bass channel on? Are the monitors on now? He un-mutes my channel, twirls the knob from around 10 o-clock to about noon, a good 20% boost to my monitor send. "Follow me to the stage".
So with only the dj playing, no other instruments, I get up there, strap on the bass and start playing. I can hear it, as long as I get on my knees and stick my ear right by the monitor. He's going "See? I can hear it". "So, AFTER you crank it an additional 20%, with no other instruments playing, and I get on my knees and stick my head in the speaker, I can get a decent level, and that sounds like it was right to you?" "I can hear it". I can hear vocals, guitar, keys coming out of that monitor just fine. But he's been a soundman for 20 years, he must be right. I guess the problem is that the bass guitar is in there, but I just don't recognize it when I hear it... I've only been a bass player for 35 years.
So he's not going to be of any help here.
Time to MacGuyver something. Take 1 stereo male rca-3.5mm stereo cable. Take 1 stereo female rca to 1/4" mono phone adapter (headphone amp is stereo, got to drive it with 1/4 mono phone plug). Take one headphone amp in an Altoids box. Take 1 set of Radius Atomic Bass earphones. Connect it all together. Theres enough bleed through the Atomic Bass that I can hear the monitors, drums, but its pretty good isolation. Turn the bass up just enough to hear, but not enough to drown out the ambient sound of the monitors bleeding through the earphones.... voila! In ear monitors for bass.
MacGuyver can kiss my butt. I didn't even need duct tape.
I have those connectors and the headphone amp to use with my digital recorder DR07, like to listen after a break and adjust placement/levels. Might need the headphone amp if there's a DJ on breaks and its loud. The connectors allow me to hook the DR07 to tape feeds on the board if possible to not use the on board mics.
Or I might need to MacGuyver an IEM..
Randy
Attachments
The latency might not be so bad, the speed of sound is 1,126 ft/s, for 5.5ms, it travels around 6 feet. The delay is equivalent to standing 6 feet from the amp. I remember reading digital wireless systems like X2 are around 4ms, and its not noticeable at all.
I've tried to play along to record tracks on digital boards where the delay is noticeable, don't know what the spec was, but was way more than 4 or 5 ms.
Having 2 per mix may be an issue, suddenly its 4 units to do bass and IEM, and you're at $400. Still cheaper than most IEM units.
The MAJOR problem is there's no limiter on the receiver unless I missed it. Maybe it'll clip before it damages your hearing from feedback (assuming there's others still using floor wedges that can feed back). If you set it right, that is. I wouldn't try without throwing a compressor in the mix on "hard limit". And I'd use the hard limiter to bring up the volume when using it, to make SURE there's not enough headroom to damage your hearing if things go haywire.
My homemade setup didn't matter so much, straight shot from bass to ears, no vocals or speakers in the signal path to feed back.
Randy
thanks steve. loved your story. =). The cheapest solution seems to be just a regular IEM monitor system. We could all have the same mix and just have 1 transmitter. which wouldn't be too bad because I still have some ambient from my amp, but i'm sure the singer wants his own mix for SURE.....No biggie. I was trying to figure out how to get rid of some of the cabling tethered to me when we play.
The main "custom" mix people want is "more me". Some IEMs like the M2 from AT, the PSM200, have 2 inputs that you can blend rather than run stereo mix.
So you run their mic directly to the IEM, pass through to the board. Then take the generic monitor mix to go to the other IEM channel. Now if they want more of their mic, just turn it up on the IEM transmitter.
That solves the problem if you don't have enough aux sends on your board to give everyone a true custom mix.
Unfortunately it requires everyone to have their own transmitter, can't share 1 with everyone getting their own receiver.
I like the idea of everyone on the same monitor mix. Singers need to learn to blend for harmonies. If you goose your mic, you can't blend with the others properly. It may be a necessary crutch for singers who aren't so good. Lord knows I'll probably need to do it when I go IEM...
My plan is to try useing mains in mine, so I can tell if the mix is good (usually we run our own sound). Someone else can run out and check if the volume is good. If someone's mic is too low in the mix, I want to fix it, not just boost them in the monitors so the monitors have the right mix and the mains don't.
Randy
Hmmm, sounds like Steve K was @ Tin Fish, Partidge Creek. Bands mixes sound terrible there and of course, the DJ is twice as loud. ?
I'm pretty sure what you're describing is what I use, and I linked to a thread where I reviewed it in post #20.
It's called the Invalid Link Removed. You plug your bass into one end of a short patch cable, which plugs into a locking input jack on the box. One long proprietary cable connects from the box out, then terminates in two jacks: one which goes into your amp and carries your bass signal, and one which is a stereo headphone input coming from a headphone amp out (either off the board or off an outboard unit) and which goes up the cable to box and out through the earphone jack (controlled by volume knob).
I just plug it all in, and I have only one cable to deal with. The box keeps the short instrument cable out of the way and gives me a level control for the earphones. At first I just used the headphone out on the board but then I got a dedicated headphone amp and now several people can have their own box like mine with their own mix.
It is pretty cool, and for $200 (plus cost of headphone amp if you want more control), it's not outrageously expensive.
FWIW three out of 5 people in my band use IEM. We all share the same mix. Bass, 3 vox, keys (flute and sax) lead gtr. We have to all be concious of our volume and the gtr refuses to use both buds (I know I've told him) but if you are considerate it can work.
Wow, nice catch there! You're absolutely right. Is that typical there? Do they usually have trouble with the monitor mixes there too, or just mains? I suppose if they can't mix the mix they can hear, the mains, the monitors are doomed.
In our case we were using QSC K12's, our normal mains, for monitors. We didn't have their normal soundman, it was a friend of one of the guys that I'm told has been a mixing sound for 20 years, it was our equipment for monitors, so none of it was Tin Fish's fault. That's why I really didn't want to name names.
I was concerned that the K12s couldn't handle bass well without the sub, but there was plenty of low end that I could hear perfectly fine while the vocal mics were feeding back on the low end like crazy. And I could hear plenty of everything else in the monitors, so it wasn't the case that I was too close and the monitors weren't pointing at my ears. Anyway, bass freqs are omnidirectional, if they were pointed in the wrong direction for me I'd have heard low end and missed the more directional mid freqs and high end. That wasn't the case, I heard no bass guitar whatsoever.
However, the DJ was substantially louder than we were, that much is true. That's either the DJ's fault, or our sound man's.
Randy
