Need some help with live sound for our bar gigs!

[NickInMesa]

We had our first gig last week and we had a few issues.

We have a 6-channel system (forgot the brand and wattage, will look it up tomorrow, as it belongs to the drummer).

We were set in a corner and this was a 200-people room.

Drums were non-miked.

From left to right:
. Me, with SansAmp DI direct into PA and into my Peavey Tour half-stack (Tour 700 and Tour 210 on the side)
. Lead guitarist with non-miked dual recto; one mike for "ooohs" (shared with me)
. Singer, one mike (duh!)
. Rhythm Guitarist (leads on a couple songs) with Line 6 Spider, miked; one mike for lead on some songs, as well as backup

So that's 5 channels taken. We were short of one instrument microphone, could not mike the Dual recto.

We had 4 speakers but one of them was on the side, towards the drummer, as a monitor.

So here are the issues:

1. The drummer could not hear the lead guitarist well
2. The bass was a bit low at the beginning and I could not hear myself. I then raised the bass level on the DI as well as on the amp and I could hear it when standing in front of the speaker, but not otherwise. I could feel the vibrations in my legs, though. I do wear plugs, the white Hearos that take out 15Dbs.
3. Lead guitar could not always hear himself well. He does wear plugs. I think he has a bit of a hearing issue, but not sure. Issue is everyone in the front could hear too much of him. He does make his Dual recto scream
4. The singer was fine but he felt like he had to compete with the guitars
5. The rhythm guitarist was fine. He was using an in-ear monitor.

The mix was great in the middle and back of the room, except for not enough bass at the beginning, until I fixed it by raising my level on the SansAmp.

Levels were not always even. Some people complained the lead guitar was too loud. That is because they were right in front.

My solutions would be to mike the lead guitarist's amp, to lower it his cab and push him on the PA. By doing this, the drummer would be able to hear everyone including the lead.

Having a monitor or two towards us the front would be another good thing.

As for myself, I guess I should raise my cab so I can use if as a monitor for myself as well, but maybe I should think about in-ear monitors as well?

 

[gareth dunster]

It sounds to me like the band is doing lots of different things and hoping it comes together in the mix somehow.
Imagine the band is playing with no PA support. You'd all twiddle your volumes until you sound reasonable together, maybe turn your cabs or move to give sound to your other band members where needed.You've just mixed your sound.
We all do this all the time when we practice, if you can't hear you turn up , if someone else is too loud you tell them.
Then you set up the PA to support this sound while taking into account bleed into front of house .
Two separate issues but the on stage sound issues must be dealt with before going on to PA setup.
I'm also starting to do sound setup for my bands and play bass simultaneously.
I also now think that everything should go into the mixer, including drums. You can add a little of anything you want to the FOH mix, sometimes with great effect.

 

[MrTAteMyBalls]

depending on the size of the room, it may help to angle everyones amp in towards the stage so you can hear yourselves.....then run it all through the PA for FOH.

That dual recto is a loud amp, and unfortunately, will sound it's best when cranked. If it's a combo, get him an amp stand. It will get the cab off the ground, and angle it up towards his ears, so he'll be able to hear it. When he's standing right in front of it all the sound is going right past him, but the front row audience is getting blasted with it.

Other than that, maybe a decent monitor setup as you said so you can hear yourselves. This is especially important for the vocalist. If all he has is the FOH sound, then he will have a difficult time and probably push his voice too hard.

last week we had a show at a club with a nice PA, but got no sound check for monitoring. I couldn't hear anything but my bass. I could barely hear the drum set(pretty big stage) and the 2 guitarists were practically non existant. Everything sounded so distant that it was tough to play. I feel your pain.

 

[PJSShearer]

.... Imagine the band is playing with no PA support. You'd all twiddle your volumes until you sound reasonable together, maybe turn your cabs or move to give sound to your other band members where needed.You've just mixed your sound.
We all do this all the time when we practice, if you can't hear you turn up , if someone else is too loud you tell them.
Then you set up the PA to support this sound while taking into account bleed into front of house .
Two separate issues but the on stage sound issues must be dealt with before going on to PA setup....

+1 - this should be a sticky!!

 

[NickInMesa]

I was thinking floor monitors but probably starting with in-ear monitors for the singer would be a good thing.

 

[GassieBall]

Nick,

We used to have the same problem with our guitarist. Believe it or not, we actually have him face his amp BACKWARDS and tilted up back toward his ears. The sound tends to bounce off the back wall and hit the audience. You make have to EQ differently to compensate. Unlike you, we have the luxury of mic-ing the lead guitar amp to control his volume through the PA. But regardless of that, you still might want to try it.

 

[JimmyM]

until you get your sound straightened out, you guys need to ditch the earplugs. you can't tell anything that's going on with earplugs in. if you don't use earplugs, then you can actually hear what's going on long enough to hear your problems, then you can fix them. and it might actually cause people to turn down. you also have to take egos out of the equation and be willing to turn down as necessary. if one guy refuses, your whole band mix is shot.

and i think you guys need to invest in a bigger board. 6 channels isn't enough for a band like yours imho.

 

[modulusman]

until you get your sound straightened out, you guys need to ditch the earplugs. you can't tell anything that's going on with earplugs in. if you don't use earplugs, then you can actually hear what's going on long enough to hear your problems, then you can fix them. and it might actually cause people to turn down. you also have to take egos out of the equation and be willing to turn down as necessary. if one guy refuses, your whole band mix is shot.

and i think you guys need to invest in a bigger board. 6 channels isn't enough for a band like yours imho.

Holy Crap! I'm actually in agreement with you on this.

 

[bucephylus]

Big +1 to Jimmy's post.

I would only add that there are several levels to the mix issue. Getting everyone to check their egos is a major step. Even then, different people conceive of the mix objective in different ways. So, if everyone is not working toward the same mix objective, there will be problems.

Nick, I just gigged in Apache Junction last night; and the band's old bass player sat in at the end of the night. So, I had a chance to walk out in the room during actual performance. And, what do I hear? Two guitars burying absolutely everything in the mix, including the poor vocalist.

So, this is a battle a lot of bands fight. Some people think the guitars drive the band. A lot of people, in fact. Don't know if it is due to weak bass players or just the way people hear music. The juke goes on, and you hear the mix on the juke, and it is always bass heavy with the guitars filtering in and out; unless it's Metallica or something. But, then you get to the gig, and a lot of players think the guitars should be out front. Beats the heck out of me.

 

[JimmyM]

Holy Crap! I'm actually in agreement with you on this.

i was wondering why my head exploded

i have never understood wearing earplugs so you can turn up to deafening levels. just never made sense to me.

 

[gareth dunster]

Nick,

We used to have the same problem with our guitarist. Believe it or not, we actually have him face his amp BACKWARDS and tilted up back toward his ears. The sound tends to bounce off the back wall and hit the audience. You make have to EQ differently to compensate. Unlike you, we have the luxury of mic-ing the lead guitar amp to control his volume through the PA. But regardless of that, you still might want to try it.

Anything is good if it works but I've found that speakers that face back to the band provide a distorted sound out front close to the stage, especially open back cabinets.This can be fixed by the PA but then you're setting up sound for a near stage scenario, which is not ideal for the rest of the room, usually making the sound overly bright.

 

[JackANSI]

Take out the earplugs and reign in the stage volume. When a band sounds like what I'm assuming yours did (since you're on here asking what to do), I leave the venue ASAP, especially when they are doing their own sound.

IME, not many people come to their local watering hole to watch weekend warriors wank on their guitars. They come to have a good time with their friends, with a good band making it that much more fun. (Of course at certain venues to watch the band(s) is the only reason to be there, and if that is your case, cool). Still, Your crowd will appreciate proper production WAY more than they will a cool hook, neat bridge, or fast licks.


Get a bigger PA and use the one you have now for stage monitors. You should have at least a sub or two for a crowd of 200 people.

Or just hire a good soundguy that brings his own PA.

 

[NickInMesa]

Big +1 to Jimmy's post.

I would only add that there are several levels to the mix issue. Getting everyone to check their egos is a major step. Even then, different people conceive of the mix objective in different ways. So, if everyone is not working toward the same mix objective, there will be problems.

Nick, I just gigged in Apache Junction last night; and the band's old bass player sat in at the end of the night. So, I had a chance to walk out in the room during actual performance. And, what do I hear? Two guitars burying absolutely everything in the mix, including the poor vocalist.

So, this is a battle a lot of bands fight. Some people think the guitars drive the band. A lot of people, in fact. Don't know if it is due to weak bass players or just the way people hear music. The juke goes on, and you hear the mix on the juke, and it is always bass heavy with the guitars filtering in and out; unless it's Metallica or something. But, then you get to the gig, and a lot of players think the guitars should be out front. Beats the heck out of me.

What bar did you gig at in AJ? We played at Firehouse.

Do you have someone you can recommend? We would like to have a sound guy to help us next time, we're ready to pay him.

PM me

 

[NickInMesa]

Take out the earplugs and reign in the stage volume. When a band sounds like what I'm assuming yours did (since you're on here asking what to do), I leave the venue ASAP, especially when they are doing their own sound.

I am the only one with ear plugs, by the way, and that is because I have had extensive damage in the past, with a bout of tinnitus which lasted a good month before my ear healed (I was young enough).

I also suffered a punctured ear drum which forced me to wear ear protection in the military as well, to the point they put me behind a desk half way through (the positive aspect is that it got me started in I.T. and it's now my profession).

I kid you not: if I do not wear ear protection, loud sound can actually make me lose balance and fall.

And don't tell me I should not play music any more

 

[claytitan]

We had our first gig last week and we had a few issues.

We have a 6-channel system (forgot the brand and wattage, will look it up tomorrow, as it belongs to the drummer).

We were set in a corner and this was a 200-people room.

Drums were non-miked.

From left to right:
. Me, with SansAmp DI direct into PA and into my Peavey Tour half-stack (Tour 700 and Tour 210 on the side)
. Lead guitarist with non-miked dual recto; one mike for "ooohs" (shared with me)
. Singer, one mike (duh!)
. Rhythm Guitarist (leads on a couple songs) with Line 6 Spider, miked; one mike for lead on some songs, as well as backup

So that's 5 channels taken. We were short of one instrument microphone, could not mike the Dual recto.

We had 4 speakers but one of them was on the side, towards the drummer, as a monitor.

So here are the issues:

1. The drummer could not hear the lead guitarist well
2. The bass was a bit low at the beginning and I could not hear myself. I then raised the bass level on the DI as well as on the amp and I could hear it when standing in front of the speaker, but not otherwise. I could feel the vibrations in my legs, though. I do wear plugs, the white Hearos that take out 15Dbs.
3. Lead guitar could not always hear himself well. He does wear plugs. I think he has a bit of a hearing issue, but not sure. Issue is everyone in the front could hear too much of him. He does make his Dual recto scream
4. The singer was fine but he felt like he had to compete with the guitars
5. The rhythm guitarist was fine. He was using an in-ear monitor.

The mix was great in the middle and back of the room, except for not enough bass at the beginning, until I fixed it by raising my level on the SansAmp.

Levels were not always even. Some people complained the lead guitar was too loud. That is because they were right in front.

My solutions would be to mike the lead guitarist's amp, to lower it his cab and push him on the PA. By doing this, the drummer would be able to hear everyone including the lead.

Having a monitor or two towards us the front would be another good thing.

As for myself, I guess I should raise my cab so I can use if as a monitor for myself as well, but maybe I should think about in-ear monitors as well?

Drums were non-miked - Probably fine. I would only mic the kick if I had subs anyway.

1. The drummer could not hear the lead guitarist well.
Snag a small mixer and share a channel if you have to. Even if you don't put anything out front you can put a little in the drummers monitor. He needs to hear the g. leads and the vocals to know when to hit his fills.


2. The bass was a bit low at the beginning and I could not hear myself. I then raised the bass level on the DI as well as on the amp and I could hear it when standing in front of the speaker, but not otherwise. I could feel the vibrations in my legs, though. I do wear plugs, the white Hearos that take out 15Dbs.

EQ yourself a lot more low mid and less lows. This allows you to get more pitch identification instead of just vibrating the stage.

3. Lead guitar could not always hear himself well. He does wear plugs. I think he has a bit of a hearing issue, but not sure. Issue is everyone in the front could hear too much of him. He does make his Dual recto scream

He is probably too loud. Seems like every lead guitarist has a volume problem. He needs to point the cab at his own head instead of everyone else. Maybe he can hear something then. Sorry but I have seen ridiculous volume coming from guitar players that can't hear themselves. A little jaded.

4. The singer was fine but he felt like he had to compete with the guitars

Duh. See number 3 above. Singer was likely all but drowned out by the guitarist. Very common.

Levels were not always even. Some people complained the lead guitar was too loud. That is because they were right in front.

If the stage was raised and the cab in on the floor it is pointing right at someone face. Probably pealing their eyebrows off. Get it in the PA which is on speaker stands. That will help.



As for myself, I guess I should raise my cab so I can use if as a monitor for myself as well, but maybe I should think about in-ear monitors as well?

Usually to me the bass is not too loud. Even if it is the frequency is much more bearable than a guitar blasting you with 1.2 kHz. Worst case you can drop off some of the way low to clean up the sound and stop vibrating the walls.

 

[konodl18]

Why is nobody asking what the speakers are, whether there was a separate main and monitor mix available on the mixer, and if one of the three speakers that were used as mains could be used as a side fill for vocals?

Those are things I would need to know to get the best out of the existing PA setup without telling the OP to by more gear.

Derek

 

[JimmyM]

I am the only one with ear plugs, by the way, and that is because I have had extensive damage in the past, with a bout of tinnitus which lasted a good month before my ear healed (I was young enough).

I also suffered a punctured ear drum which forced me to wear ear protection in the military as well, to the point they put me behind a desk half way through (the positive aspect is that it got me started in I.T. and it's now my profession).

I kid you not: if I do not wear ear protection, loud sound can actually make me lose balance and fall.

And don't tell me I should not play music any more

i would never say that. a lot of musicians with hearing problems do pretty well for themselves...pete townshend and jeff beck for two. i might, however, suggest you should turn over sound-running duties to someone else in the band with better hearing. it's a tough job to do without being able to listen without earplugs, bro.

 

[NickInMesa]

i would never say that. a lot of musicians with hearing problems do pretty well for themselves...pete townshend and jeff beck for two. i might, however, suggest you should turn over sound-running duties to someone else in the band with better hearing. it's a tough job to do without being able to listen without earplugs, bro.

Oh it's not my responsibilities

 

[Never_grew_up]

Another piece of the puzzle - If you're going to run sound from the stage you should seriously consider getting a wireless unit. Not so you can stage-dive or crowd-surf (though that's fun) but so you can get out and hear the house mix. I'm a big fan of running everything on stage as low as possible and letting the PA do the work but that's a pretty hard concept for a lot of guitar players to grasp. It also means having a decent enough monitor setup - whether wedges or IEMs - to get the mix over (well, even with) the drums. Plus it's harder for the guitar player to argue if you tell him to turn down after you've walked out into the audience to listen.