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Double Bass Neumann KM 185 users speak low!

#22
bolo said:
Bill, yes please keep the comments about your experiences w/ the 185 coming if you don't mind. I for one am interested, and I appreciate all the info that you and Vunz have shared. Vunz even turned me on to the H-clamp too which I really dig.

I have an AMT too and a Beyer M 88. Always wanted a Neumann though. :)
Click to expand...

Kjetil Laukholm said:
If it sounds good then great! It might sound even better with a better pre.
It is a matter of stable voltage and ample unrestricted currentflow.
Click to expand...

Vunz said:
But I'm glad the mic is working for you with the Acoustic Image. Keep us posted about your findings!
Click to expand...

Ok guys, I can see we have the KM 185 Club assembled here! New members welcome, any time! Anyone please speak low!

I have 3 gigs next week and will use the KM 185 on each of them, using both of my basses (one with Spiro Weichs, one with Animas), and will later post my impressions. One gig will be with a PA providing 48V of phantom, so maybe I will be able to sense the difference, if there is any difference.

Right now I must say -- all respect for Kjetil's opinion -- I am not quite yet sold on the idea that 38V phantom power is not enough to power the KM 185. First, it did not sound in any respect as though it were not fully powered. The A.I. Contra 2R (II)and Clarus 2R (III) did not distort, nothing would suggest any lack of power. Second, none of the audio technicians I asked -- one of them is at the Neumann dealer here in Switzerland -- had never thought about it before but guessed that 38V might be enough. Third, like Kjetil, another suggested that theoretically there could be attenuation of certain frequencies, but he said they would be in ranges that I will never play on the bass, e.g., higher tones a trumpet can reach, and at volumes I will almost never use.

The A.I. amps provide exactly what Kjetil said might be needed, i.e., "stable voltage and ample unrestricted currentflow." I am going to ask the A.I. folks what they think, if 48V is the global norm, then why would a firm such as A.I. decide to provide only 38V? I can't believe they don't know what they're doing. Anyway, time will tell and I'll report back to you all.

Bill
 
#23
We are not talking big differences. Distortion can be a very subtle thing and often perceived as pleasing.
The frequency and transient response change is there albeit small.

I am of the philosophy that many small differences add up to something quite substantial at the end.
BTW, most equipment that says it provides 48v phantom delivers short of that and with a restricted current flow.
the real test is to AB test using two km185 next to each other going into different preamps, recorded through something like a Prism or Lavry Gold AD ($6k per channel)

All respect to AI, but that is not high end recording equipment and it could not possibly be at that pricepoint.

Ask about phantom power effects on the 185 over at the Neumann forum or alternatively Klaus Heynes forum, you will surely get a clear and educated answer.
 
#25
Here is an article that graces the subject of poor phantom powering.
Every mic model is affected in a different way by this. Some have very high tolerances and some are highly sensitive.

Invalid Link Removed
 
#30
Here is a link to a comment made by Martin Shcneider who works at Neumans mic research and development facility in Berlin

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Here is a quote:

It is amazing how many manufacturers think they can save money, and design effort, by economizing in the wrong places. It's just like they would expect their TV to work perfectly with only 70 V, instead of 110V or 230 V.
And, the phantom power standard specifying 12V, 24V or 48V has been around since the 1960s....., so it's not that new.
 
#32
Kjetil Laukholm said:
Here is a link to a comment made by Martin Shcneider who works at Neumans mic research and development facility in Berlin

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Here is a quote:

It is amazing how many manufacturers think they can save money, and design effort, by economizing in the wrong places. It's just like they would expect their TV to work perfectly with only 70 V, instead of 110V or 230 V.
And, the phantom power standard specifying 12V, 24V or 48V has been around since the 1960s....., so it's not that new.
Click to expand...

Kjetil

I can't get too excited about voltages and technical stuff, I guess that's just my own personal limitations coming out there, I just want it to work and to sound GREAT...

So:

I wrote to Martin at Neumann and got an answer back from him within a few hours. He explained in detail why, in all likelihood, there should be NO PROBLEMS using the KM 185 on the Acoustic Image's 38V phantom power for bass. He did say that 48 V has been the international norm since about 1967. I'll post Martin's email to me if he consents to that.

I also wrote to Rick Jones at Acoustic Image and asked him why A.I. determined to provide only 38V phantom, and he wrote back promptly stating that this was a design decision by A.I. and that they apparently felt that this was adequate. And, so far, as far as I am concerned, Rick is absolutely right! IMHO the A.I. 38V phantom power drives the KM 185 perfectly for bass, but I reserve the right to change this opinion if, on my 4 gigs over the next two weeks I experience something to report to the contrary.

Bill
 
#33
bonaventura said:
Kjetil

I can't get too excited about voltages and technical stuff, I guess that's just my own personal limitations coming out there, I just want it to work and to sound GREAT...

So:

I wrote to Martin at Neumann and got an answer back from him within a few hours. He explained in detail why, in all likelihood, there should be NO PROBLEMS using the KM 185 on the Acoustic Image's 38V phantom power for bass. He did say that 48 V has been the international norm since about 1967. I'll post Martin's email to me if he consents to that.

I also wrote to Rick Jones at Acoustic Image and asked him why A.I. determined to provide only 38V phantom, and he wrote back promptly stating that this was a design decision by A.I. and that they apparently felt that this was adequate. And, so far, as far as I am concerned, Rick is absolutely right! IMHO the A.I. 38V phantom power drives the KM 185 perfectly for bass, but I reserve the right to change this opinion if, on my 4 gigs over the next two weeks I experience something to report to the contrary.

Bill
Click to expand...

I used the KM 184 for a minute into the Focus 2r III and there is really no PHantom issue here. If you like the mic don't let the Focus Phantom worry you. I found that the 184 picked up WAY WAY to much ambient room noise for the kinds of gigs I was playing. When Keith calls me up and I am playing in front of audiences where you can hear a pin drop i may reconsider but...amping all that room noise means much much less direct signal for me. Amping the drummer and piano player and noisy crowd just didn't work. Personally (all respect to those here who use and love it) I really love the KM's for recording but found them unusable most of the gigs I do.
Look thru the threads here about high quality Dyanamic mics if you find you are having a problem with too much bleed.
best
p
 
#34
flatback said:
I used the KM 184 for a minute into the Focus 2r III and there is really no PHantom issue here. If you like the mic don't let the Focus Phantom worry you. I found that the 184 picked up WAY WAY to much ambient room noise for the kinds of gigs I was playing. When Keith calls me up and I am playing in front of audiences where you can hear a pin drop i may reconsider but...amping all that room noise means much much less direct signal for me. Amping the drummer and piano player and noisy crowd just didn't work. Personally (all respect to those here who use and love it) I really love the KM's for recording but found them unusable most of the gigs I do.
Look thru the threads here about high quality Dyanamic mics if you find you are having a problem with too much bleed.
best
p
Click to expand...
So, you tried the KM 184? That's a cardioid mic, whereas the KM 185 is a hypercardioid, which picks up far less ambient noise...

Cheers,
Vincent
 
#35
Glad to hear Martin wrote you with an informative answer.
He knows his stuff and provides great service for Neumann.
There are not enough people around with his attitude and knowledge.

Each mic is different, and while the km185 may perform well (for your application) that far out of specifications the same might not be the case with a mic like the Schoeps mk41, or in situations with higher spl.

I am, however, confident that you will not find unstandard powering implemented by top engineers in top studios.
For the record, I have not worked with the km185. We do own a number of 184's that see use from time to time when we need exceptionally high track counts. Mainly they are there for renals to low budget classical orchestra recordings.
 
#36
Vunz said:
So, you tried the KM 184? That's a cardioid mic, whereas the KM 185 is a hypercardioid, which picks up far less ambient noise...

Cheers,
Vincent
Click to expand...

Yea V,
I realize that the 184's pick up a lot more...and I am interestyed in trying out the 185. But i am really stoked on the Heil Pr 40 right now despite the fact it is about ten times the size and weight of a good condenser. One day someone I know is gunna loan me a 185 and i'll get a real world sense of how it performs for me...
 
#37
flatback said:
Yea V,
I realize that the 184's pick up a lot more...and I am interestyed in trying out the 185. But i am really stoked on the Heil Pr 40 right now despite the fact it is about ten times the size and weight of a good condenser. One day someone I know is gunna loan me a 185 and i'll get a real world sense of how it performs for me...
Click to expand...

Hi Flatback

Ok, let's not confuse the KM 184 with the 185. I accept that what you experienced with the KM 184 is true. But I had a very different experience just last night with the KM 185 in a crowded little room with the drummer and trumpeter right next to me -- no extra noise, just bass. This mic seems to be great for bass, even in close situations. It's hypercaratoid, as Vunz likes to say.... :smug:

Bill
 
#38
bonaventura said:
Hi Flatback

Ok, let's not confuse the KM 184 with the 185. I accept that what you experienced with the KM 184 is true. But I had a very different experience just last night with the KM 185 in a crowded little room with the drummer and trumpeter right next to me -- no extra noise, just bass. This mic seems to be great for bass, even in close situations. It's hypercaratoid, as Vunz likes to say.... :smug:

Bill
Click to expand...

Great to hear that your first real-gig experiences were positive! Did you use a pickup along with the mic, or did you go "all the way", just as I do ;) And where did you place the mic?

Cheers,
Vincent
 
#39
Vunz said:
Great to hear that your first real-gig experiences were positive! Did you use a pickup along with the mic, or did you go "all the way", just as I do ;) And where did you place the mic?

Cheers,
Vincent
Click to expand...

Vincent

I used it "pur" -- without anything else. Only way to go, I thought, if I want to hear how well the mic works. But like you, I now feel that the KM 185 is really all I need.

Placement: Still experimenting. But I use an H-Clamp and had the mic pointing at a slight angle "up and in", the tip of the mic was about 8 cm distant from the middle of the area or spot between the G-string foot of the bridge and the round top hole of the F-hole. If I went too far towards the F-hole, the sound got a bit too thick (not enough clarity of the string articulations), but if I pointed it say further in above the bridge towards the middle of the top, the sound was too thin for my taste.

What do you think of that? Your mic seems to be quite a ways out, 20 cm would seem too far for me. What would yours sound like in the position I described?

Bill
 
#40
Ok, here's what Martin at Neumann wrote (emphasis added):

"Dear Bill,

I'm afraid there is no simple perfect answer.

First of all, there is a worldwide standard for phantom power, since roughly 1967, for phantom power, but some manufacturers still make it a bit easy for themselves by using just any voltage allowed they have in their device and calling it phantom power. Allowed values are 12V, 24V or 48V. For the 48V type (P48), the min / max are 44 / 52 volts. All our mics are guaranteed to work perfectly inside that range.

Lower voltages will never damage our microphones, so you can safely try it with 38 Volts.

My problem in determining if a P48 (like the KM185) microphone will work perfectly or sub-standard or not all, is that it not only depends on the voltages but also on the limiting resistors a manufacturer uses inside his phantom circuit. They determine how much current will be available for the mic....

Possible scenarios are:

- the P48 mic will work perfectly.

- the P48 mic will be limited in its max sound pressure handling specs, meaning: it will clip some dB's earlier. In that case, with the double bass you shouldn't have any problems.

- P48 mics which use the phantom voltage directly as capsule voltage (mostly older or simpler circuits, NOT our current transformerless mics) will produce a lower sensitivity, and thus a higher equivalent noise floor. In this case by 38V/48V ~ 2dB.

- the P48 mic will not work, or just sometimes, depending on the exact voltage on that day. In one case, we had a singer whose mic worked nicely on one day, not at all on the other day. But this was with a power mixer that produced only 24 volts one day, 23.5 volts the other day.

So, the chances are quite high that you will NOT encounter any problems with your 38 volts and the KM185.

As a final note: the best way to get all manufacturers to use the same standards is to send a short e-mail to them, pointing out your doubts / problems with connecting standard condenser microphones to non-standard phantom power.

Good success with your KM185!

Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Best regards

Martin Schneider
Georg Neumann GmbH, Berlin
Mikr. Entwicklung / Mic. Development"
 
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