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Double Bass Neumann KM 185 users speak low!

bonaventura

bonaventura

Dec 31, 2006
474
4
No' Cal (light)
#1
The Neumann website says the KM 185 is designed to avoid feedback and resonances and cut out other instrument sounds from the environment, e.g., drums, sax, even more than the KM 184, as well as transmit warm deep bass tones. Do any of you have any experiences with this mic? Thanks for your comments...
 
#2
The 185 has a hypercardioid pickup pattern versus the 184's cardiod pickup pattern.

This means more rejection of other sounds from the sides of the microphone, like any other hypercardioid pattern. The caveat is that it has a more pronounced proximity effect when put close to it's source (and aimed directly at it). This boosts low end dramatically (usually everything below 80-120hz). It's also a VERY sensitive microphone (read: 'picks up a lot'). This INCREASES the likelyhood of feeding back when used with an amp/PA.

Are you looking for a 'live' mic?

A mic like this is typically used in a studio to isolate an instrument when more than one person is tracking in the same room. Usually placed a few feet away to capture the instrument.
 
#3
I use a km 185, without an additional pickup, with all my gigs (bigband, small group, with pa, without, etc). As with all mics, you have to take into account that the way you are positioned relative to yout fellow musicians and amp/monitor, but that has become an automatism for me. There is always some bleed, especially from the drums, but not in a disturbing way (and I sometimes play with LOUD drummers!). As regards the proximity effect: the KM 185 has a high pas filter built in to compensate for this. I have my mic about 20 cm from the top of the bass, and there is no lack, nor exaggeration, of the low end.

In short: this mic enables me to hear my bass, "only louder", in a relatively unproblematic manner!

Cheers,

Vincent
 
#6
Here is a pic.

Cheers,

Vincent
 

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  • Km185.jpg
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#8
Vunz said:
I use a km 185, without an additional pickup, with all my gigs (bigband, small group, with pa, without, etc). As with all mics, you have to take into account that the way you are positioned relative to yout fellow musicians and amp/monitor, but that has become an automatism for me. There is always some bleed, especially from the drums, but not in a disturbing way (and I sometimes play with LOUD drummers!). As regards the proximity effect: the KM 185 has a high pas filter built in to compensate for this. I have my mic about 20 cm from the top of the bass, and there is no lack, nor exaggeration, of the low end.

In short: this mic enables me to hear my bass, "only louder", in a relatively unproblematic manner!

Cheers,

Vincent
Click to expand...

Greetings Vincent

I've been snooping around the various threads in which the KM 185 was discussed, and it seems you are truly one of the few who have extensive experience with this mic. are you still happy, overall, with it?

are you at all concerned about the "INCREASED" feedback that Beef wrote about? did you experience this?

how does this high-pass filter work? is it pre-set? can you adjust it?

did you have to fight feedback on the stage when you ran it through a PA? or amp?

did using the H-Clamp involve any special considerations?

thanks for your comments...

Bill
 
#9
The increased feedback I referred to is really for any condenser microphone. They all just pick up a lot (they work well).

Study Vunz's pic. It's placed perfectly. Everything from the distance to the instrument to the angle of the mic. All these things increase isolation and keep proximity effect from being a problem.

My comments above were generally speaking. His set-up would be hard to beat for live playing.

I use mics like this in a studio setting.
Take Vunz's advice for live use.
 
#10
Hi Beef & Bonaventura,

Yes, I am very happy with it. And thank you, Beef, for your comments regarding my rig.

As Beef remarked, condenser mics are more sensitive, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course, there are limits to the volume that you can achieve onstage, just as with a pickup, and probably the max volume is less than with a pickup. But, as a drummer I regularly gig with has commented, the volume may be less, but the clarity and feel of the amplified sound makes that the bass can be heard/perceived far more clearly than many basses outfitted with a pickup.

Mind you, volume/feedback is only an issue on stage. The volume through the PA itself is not any more limited compared to a bass with a pickup.

The high pass filter is preset; you cannot alter anything (check the frequency diagram of this mic on the Neumann website). The H-clamp, lastly, enabled me to experiment with mic placement. So it was not a limitation, but an extension of mic placement possibilities.

Cheers,
Vincent
 
#11
Vunz said:
The H-clamp, lastly, enabled me to experiment with mic placement. So it was not a limitation, but an extension of mic placement possibilities.
Click to expand...

Vunz, I noticed you have the KM 185 pointed just above and to the side of the F hole. If it were pointed directly at the F hold would you have boominess or too much sound coming at it?

also, as to general placement, can you freely bow with your mic placed where it is in the picture? I suppose, you could move the H-Clamp further down, but how would that affect the sound with the mic farther away from where it's now pointed?
 
#13
bolo said:
Vunz, thanks for the pic and your posts. Nice set up indeed.

Did you ever try the 184 in live situations, or did you just choose the 185 instead based on the specs?
Click to expand...

I chose the 185 based on the specs, and on the fact that John Patitucci uses one live as well (in addition to his Realist and AMT mic; the AMT and realist are used by Patitucci for monitoring, the 185 is sent to the PA - along with a bit of the Realist).

@ Bonaventura: the mic is not pointed to the f-hole, although the pic might give the illusion it does. Instead, it is pointed at the centre of the top, so right in the middle between the two f-holes.

Cheers,
Vincent
 
#14
Vunz said:
I chose the 185 based on the specs, and on the fact that John Patitucci uses one live as well (in addition to his Realist and AMT mic; the AMT and realist are used by Patitucci for monitoring, the 185 is sent to the PA - along with a bit of the Realist).
Click to expand...

Vunz

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I just got this minute my KM 185! In the manual it says it requires Phantom Power 48 Volts, and I guess that is fine if there is a PA. What about your amp? My amp is an A.I. Clarus 2R (Series III), which will supply only 38 V of Phantom Power. Is that enough? (I guess not.... :help: )What should I do? will the KM 185 work with my amp? Or do I have to buy their Phantom Power device to get the 48 V?

How do you power the KM 185?

Bill
 
#16
Vunz said:
I use a dedicated mic preamp (a SPL Gainstation 1 with full 48V phantom supply) which I connect directly to a power amp. I have no idea whether 38V is enough. You could perhaps visit Neumann.com and ask this question in their user forum, or check the online documentation on the KM185.

Cheers,
Vincent
Click to expand...

Vincent

I first checked with several audio technicians and, while 48V is the standard in Europe, all of them felt that 38V Phantom Power (which is what both of my Acoustic Image amps supply) are enough to drive the KM 185. In any event, they said, to try it out on 38V would not harm the mic.

So I tried it. And wow, it works very well on 38V Phantom. It transmits a full deep sound, much richer in tone and more sensitive than my favorite (so far), the AMT I've been using for two years and like very much also. I think I may have to place the KM 185 closer than the 20 cm from the top where you are using it, and that may be because of the 38V, I'm not sure. My first impression is it will feed back sooner than the AMT, but given the quality of the sound, I think I will certainly be able to deal with that. :cool:

But I'll be experimenting with it over the next few weeks and would be happy to compare notes with you or anyone else here who is interested.

Bill
 
#17
Bill, yes please keep the comments about your experiences w/ the 185 coming if you don't mind. I for one am interested, and I appreciate all the info that you and Vunz have shared. Vunz even turned me on to the H-clamp too which I really dig.

I have an AMT too and a Beyer M 88. Always wanted a Neumann though. :)
 
#18
There are a few other good hypercardioids:
Schoeps ccm41 (very small, very good)
Beyer M160 Hypercardioid ribbon (medium size, but requires very quiet preamp with ample gain)
Neumann TLM170 five pattern (not small at all)

As for 48v, performance is optimized at 48v, they will work at lower voltages (often cheaper pres do not deliver anything close to 48v). Do not underestimate the effect good phantom power as well as a good preamp has on a mic.

kindest
Kjetil Laukholm
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#19
Kjetil Laukholm said:
There are a few other good hypercardioids:
Schoeps ccm41 (very small, very good)
Beyer M160 Hypercardioid ribbon (medium size, but requires very quiet preamp with ample gain)
Neumann TLM170 five pattern (not small at all)

As for 48v, performance is optimized at 48v, they will work at lower voltages (often cheaper pres do not deliver anything close to 48v). Do not underestimate the effect good phantom power as well as a good preamp has on a mic.

kindest
Kjetil Laukholm
Link Removed
Click to expand...

Hallo Kjetil,

Thanks for chiming in. Hmmm... sounds like you are familiar with the technical background, unlike myself...

So what could be the disadvantage of driving the KM 185 with "only" 38 V of phantom power? After all, that is approaching 80% of the prescribed amount. There is info on the web that says the hypercaratoid condensor mics run on "between 34 and 52 V of phantom power". So you've got me wondering what the negative impact might be of using less than the industry-wide, I understand global norm of 48.

I played with one of my bands tonight and it sounded great. In a small room, crowded, close to other musicians and the bass very close to the amp -- no feedback. I didn't hear anything but a good sound. Are there, in your view, situations in which the mic would not do its best on less than the prescribed 48V? How could the sound suffer? What are those situations?

By the way, Neumann wants EUR 440 for the Neumann 48v phantom power supplier. I can see spending the EUR 700 on the mic, but somehow the accessory cannot be worth it. Do you know of any more "generic" (= cheaper because not brand name) phantom power devices? There has to be some device cheaply available for that.

Thanks for any info you might have.

Bill
 
#20
If it sounds good then great! It might sound even better with a better pre.
It is a matter of stable voltage and ample unrestricted currentflow.
I would not spend money on a separate phantom supply. In the long run you might look into a recording channel like the Millennnia TD-1 or Universal Audio LA610. Any first class Mic pre will do the job and they will have top rate phantom powering. The Grace 101 would do a fantastic job at ca $500, but it would not work as a DI box like the Millennia and UA.
Less than ideal phantom power can cause distortion, a loss of of transients and a slight change in frequency response

I would also look at getting something like this for live playing/recording

Invalid Link Removed

They are coming out with a much smaller one which would work well with the km185.

Kjetil
 

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