Double Bass Neumann MCM 114

[Wasnex]

I believe the term used for the Schoeps MK 41 is “Supercardoid” that’s slightly different from a “Hypercardoid”. As I recall, DPA 4099Dvote is a figure 8 (Shotgun) There are different ways to tame feedback. The Schoeps CMC6/CMC1 bodies are among the finest in the world. Along with MK6 and MK41 capsules their used for recording music live on motion picture sets.

DPA says the 4099 is supercardioid.

The Schoeps Mk6 has long been discontinued and is no longer supported as parts are not available. It was a multi-pattern mic that used mechanical louvres to switch between omni, cardioid, and figure-8. The Mk4 is Cardioid and Mk41 is Supercardioid.

The Lemo cable is an option VS XLR for the input to the mic amplifier. The cable that connects between the amp and mic capsule is called a KC Active Collete Cable: KC | Active Colette Cables | SCHOEPS Microphones These come in either 5M or 10M and are quite expensive.

Schoeps miniature mics fall under the CCM line. The amplifier and mic elements are packaged in one smaller unit, with a detachable pigtail that can be terminated in XLR or LEMO. Schoeps claims the CCM perform identically to the Collette specs.

CCM4 is cardioid and CCM41 is supercardioid.

AFAIK, all of these Schoeps mics are also offered in V models which are side address. I believe standard end address versions have flatter response and the V versions have a bit more boost in the high end.

Standard

V

 

[Ric Vice]

Interesting about the DPA 4099 I know it's a miniaturized shot gun of some sort to help keep feedback in line. I had and older 4099B and really did not care for the timbre of the mic.
I've recorded with the newer DPA Dvote 4099B and felt it was a definite improvement over the originals. That said, I'm invested in the Remic 5400 and Remic 5400 LB they're incredible
microphones and very easy to install and remove.

 

[Wasnex]

Interesting about the DPA 4099 I know it's a miniaturized shot gun of some sort to help keep feedback in line. I had and older 4099B and really did not care for the timbre of the mic.
I've recorded with the newer DPA Dvote 4099B and felt it was a definite improvement over the originals. That said, I'm invested in the Remic 5400 and Remic 5400 LB they're incredible
microphones and very easy to install and remove.

DPA refers to the 4097 as a micro shotgun. It has a supercardioid pattern. I could not find any reference that calls the 4099 a shotgun .

4097 plots

4099 Plots

I don't see any difference electronically. I think it's just a slightly different way of packaging the same capsule and preamp.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I believe the term used for the Schoeps MK 41 is “Supercardoid” that’s slightly different from a “Hypercardoid”. As I recall, DPA 4099Dvote is a figure 8 (Shotgun) There are different ways to tame feedback. The Schoeps CMC6/CMC1 bodies are among the finest in the world. Along with MK6 and MK41 capsules their used for recording music live on motion picture sets.

A Supercardioid is between a normal Cardioid and a Hypercardioid, so less inverse sensitivity on the back and wider sensitivity at the front. As a Wide Cardioid is between an Omni and a Cardioid, so still some in-phase sensitivity on the back, but not uniform as the Omni.

A Shotgun is a special tube design in front of the capsule where certain side regions are (more or less) cancelled out and the result is more directional than a Hypercardioid, but with more coloration than you might like for music and still some sensitivity to the sides. This mostly used for film to isolate speakers from a distance.

Die to the DPA sensitivity patterns it is clearly a Supercardioid.
A Shotgun design would not make sense since it does color the sound and it is not needed or meaningful for that kind of application.

 

[flatback]

can someone post the Scheops CCM 41 kit( best one for the bass), maybe a link to the product on B&H. I am not sure if there is a cord for example that can separate the capsule from the amp, which makes the on bass mic smaller- I am just not sure which exact Schoeps kit is the best to put on a H clamp and does it terminate in a XLR or the amp with built in XLR or what...Thanks

 

[Wasnex]

can someone post the Scheops CCM 41 kit( best one for the bass), maybe a link to the product on B&H. I am not sure if there is a cord for example that can separate the capsule from the amp, which makes the on bass mic smaller- I am just not sure which exact Schoeps kit is the best to put on a H clamp and does it terminate in a XLR or the amp with built in XLR or what...Thanks

To the best of my knowledge.

You can order the CCM mics with a fixed XLR pigtail or removable pigtail with a Lemo connector. A suffix on the mic model designates. U or K= fixed XLR and L or Lg = removable XLR.

The model for the removable cables are K 5 LU (Lemo to XLR 5m). I believe this is the standard Lemo connector that comes with the mic kit.

There is also an optional lemo pigtail K 5 L-TA3 (Lemo to mini XLR)

You can see how the Lemo connector screws into the mic body in this image:

Schoeps makes a accessory clamp that attaches to the bridge to hold the mic. The model is VA 5. Here is a link: Schoeps VA 5 - Vintage King

This image shows a standard CCM mic in the VA 5. I would think a side address mic would work better, but the side address mics have a bit more boost around 10K.

AFAIK the standard end address mics do not get a suffix, but the side address models do. The V suffix indicates side address.

So for example, CCM 41V L is a supercardioid mic with side address and the standard removable Lemo to XLR adapter.

Not confusing at all .

 

[Ric Vice]

This is so complicated and so expensive I think I’ll just stay with my pair of Remic’s and check out the Neumann CMC 114 when it becomes available.
The pair of Remic’s I own is less than the cost of the Schoeps CMC1 MK41 alone. Just my take.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Since the Schoeps is a hypercardiod, and the Neumann is a „normal“ cardioid, it didn’t make any sense that the Schoeps would be more prone to feedback but who knows! I’ll see if I could try them both out before making my mind…

Neither is better, just different. Hypercardoid has been reported to have better sound quality for bass than cardoid

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Neither is better, just different. Hypercardoid has been reported to have better sound quality for bass than cardoid

Maybe that was me. I tried the three different capsules (Omni, Cardioid and Hypercardioid) with my Oktava MK-012 and the Omni was best but not feedback resistant, the Hypercardioid was close to the Omni soundwise, but best in Feedback resistance and the Cardioid didn‘t sound nice enough to me.
Might be different with other mics.

Maybe some time I do the same with my better Elation KM201 small diaphragms where I have the same type of directional capsules.

BTW, that was using the four rubber band suspending method through the underlengths pointing between the bridge feet at the top.

 

[Ric Vice]

Interestingly the Remic D5400's have two different capsule configurations. the Remic D4500 (Red) is a Omni that puts a bubble right over the bridge area.
While the Remic D5400 LB is a figure 8 with two different capsule surfaces on the same mic, one at the top/front and the other underneath the bottom.

 

[crd]

Has anyone else had any more first hand experience with the Neumann clip-on mic yet? If so, how does it compare to the DPA? I found a comparison video with a cello and violin that is interesting. They sound pretty similar but the Neumann seems a little sweeter in the low mid.

I do a lot of home recording these days. I've used the Nadine for a while but changed instruments and am finding my new bass and the Nadine don't pair very well. My studio room is not an ideal recording environment. I can make a mic on a stick work but it involves many blankets hung in various spots around the room...

 

[Ben Rolston]

It’s still not available as far as I can tell

 

[Ben Rolston]

I’m so curious

 

[Wasnex]

Has anyone else had any more first hand experience with the Neumann clip-on mic yet? If so, how does it compare to the DPA? I found a comparison video with a cello and violin that is interesting. They sound pretty similar but the Neumann seems a little sweeter in the low mid.

As you may know; @John Goldsby had a chance to demo the mic:
Microphone Stage for Upright Bass

 

[crd]

As you may know; @John Goldsby had a chance to demo the mic:
Microphone Stage for Upright Bass

That is where my curiosity started (sorry, I didn't remember the video was posted there as well)

 

[Scott Lynch]

Any updates on this? Really interested in a comparison between the DPA 4099 and the new Neumann MCM 114.

 

[Ric Vice]

Not likely for a while, I just don't have the inclination to fork out the cash just to check it out. John's evaluation is good enough for me. I've had the DPA 4099 and it's great but kinda bright.

 

[Ric Vice]

This is a very through evaluation, I know it's been posted earlier but the full video has some great discussion about the differences between the DPA 4099 Dvote (it has a miniature amplifier built into the mic capsule)
and the Neumann MCM 114. Simply put the DPA is brighter with slightly better off axis rejection while the Neumann is warmer with decent off axis rejection. This confirms what John already said. That would put me
in the Neumann camp if I were at all interested in either microphone, but the gooseneck length is always an issue with my bass. Just my take however.

 

[crd]

Okay, anyone pull the trigger on one of these yet?

 

[Eyermann]

Okay, anyone pull the trigger on one of these yet?

I received it recently. I think it is a little smoother sounding than the DPA. And the cable and rubber holder is more robust compared to the danish sibling.