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Double Bass Neumann MCM 114
- Thread starter CryingBass
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- neumann 114
Hi Ric et al,
I was looking to get either a DPA 4099 or Neumann MCM 114 until I heard about the Remic 5400.
Out of these three you'd recommend the Remic, right?
Is the positioning really that simple, does it stay in its place?
My setup is: Shadow SH965 NFX, Headway's EDB-2, Electro-Voice Everse 8 (monitor)
I wonder if should consider the 5400 LB given that my jazz quintett is rather loud, but then again it's not rock/metal.
Regardless, am I correct to assume the regular 5400 is still the better choice than the DPA and Neumann regarding feedback?
By the way, if I dial each gain of two inputs (Shadow and now also mic) to the loudest setting where it still sounds natural, will this give me an overall louder signal, as compared to using use one input? Or will they somehow cancel each other out and the dual signal is more or less as loud as the single?
Cheers and thank you very much!
With a mic you always have the risk of feedback, earlier or a bit later.
Using a mic and a pickup still has this risk. It could Mrs in a bit later if the pickup is the main source and the mic has a lower percentage of the mix.
To your question:
Mixing both signals at max. undistorted levels gives a stronger output signal at the output of the preamp thsn one of them alone. But the main volume would be able to adjust this if it is not maxed out.
But the louder output from the speaker enlarges the risk for feedback. So it might not make sense in a louder band to use a mic at all as the feedback might begin at lower levels with a mic and the mic would pick up too much from other loud instruments, mainly the cymbals.
The Shadow NFX is a nice pickup, but has a bit quiet output and a too soft attack to get through a loud band. It might sound a bit better with only one fool connected, but for getting through a loud band, a bridge leg (Yamahiko, Full Circle, Wilson K1, ANS/Bassbalsereit) or a bridge wing pickup (Underwood, Shadow SH-950/951, etc.) might better punch through.
A contact mic (Ehrlund EAP, AKG C411, Ischell etc.) has a lower feedback risk than an air mic, but placement is a bit trickier. But might be still not the best choice for a louder band.
You can try to put the piezo foil(s) into the bridge wing(s) and fill the space with shims. That might get you an impression of the sound of a bridge wing pickup. Try it with the band, not only at home.
Using a mic and a pickup still has this risk. It could Mrs in a bit later if the pickup is the main source and the mic has a lower percentage of the mix.
To your question:
Mixing both signals at max. undistorted levels gives a stronger output signal at the output of the preamp thsn one of them alone. But the main volume would be able to adjust this if it is not maxed out.
But the louder output from the speaker enlarges the risk for feedback. So it might not make sense in a louder band to use a mic at all as the feedback might begin at lower levels with a mic and the mic would pick up too much from other loud instruments, mainly the cymbals.
The Shadow NFX is a nice pickup, but has a bit quiet output and a too soft attack to get through a loud band. It might sound a bit better with only one fool connected, but for getting through a loud band, a bridge leg (Yamahiko, Full Circle, Wilson K1, ANS/Bassbalsereit) or a bridge wing pickup (Underwood, Shadow SH-950/951, etc.) might better punch through.
A contact mic (Ehrlund EAP, AKG C411, Ischell etc.) has a lower feedback risk than an air mic, but placement is a bit trickier. But might be still not the best choice for a louder band.
You can try to put the piezo foil(s) into the bridge wing(s) and fill the space with shims. That might get you an impression of the sound of a bridge wing pickup. Try it with the band, not only at home.
Carfax,
Pardon me for intruding into this conversation.
I'm a big fan of the Remics. I have their Grand Piano system and their mics for Contrabass, Cello and Violin.
The reason I saw your post is because I'm getting ready to sell my Remics (except for the piano system) and I used "Remic" as a search term.
You asked about positioning.
One of the nice things about the Remic is there are several positions where the mic works well, depending on the music you're playing, arco vs plucked, and your overall style. At the tailpiece, under the bridge or under the fingerboard, the tones are different (of course) and any could be the one you'd want. I think the only thing the mic can't do is mic the f-hole, and I'm not a big fan of that tone anyway.
Because of the particular gig I bought the mics for, I went with the LB (Live) version rather than than "non-LB" version, which they consider to be their recording version. The LB version is a little less sensitive than the other, which results in less leakage and a better resistance to wind noise.
I've used the DPA and the AT mics on basses, as well. My preference would be Remic, then AT350 (with the right mounting hardware) and DPA. If you wanted to have total freedom as to your choice of mics, you could also try the H-clamps and then you could use just about any SDC, including Schoeps, DPA, Neumann, et al. And bluegrass players are very keen on the Ear Trumpet Labs mics (I think it's the Edwina).
I'm a live sound engineer and recording engineer, not a musician.
Hey guys, I'm doing a research for mics for my double bass and I'm interested in buy the ATM 350U ...Its an excellent budget option ,i guess!
But ,after discovering that MCM mic i was kinda shocked about its sound...The question is how is its performance on stage regarding feedback and also mic bleed? I'm very curious because it is a very fresh product and there are no Mic comparisons on Youtube yet!!Looking forward to hear opinions!!
But ,after discovering that MCM mic i was kinda shocked about its sound...The question is how is its performance on stage regarding feedback and also mic bleed? I'm very curious because it is a very fresh product and there are no Mic comparisons on Youtube yet!!Looking forward to hear opinions!!
I just bought a pair of MCMs and will be trying them on a Steinway 9' tomorrow with a jazz group, Braxton Cook. I'll make some comments after the gig.
The AT is half the price and sounds great. The Remic provides a lot of options depending on placement. Also do your research on the Prodipe. Very DPA-like at 1/4 the cost.
Well, from what I can gather from other players It’s warmer sounding than the DPA 4099 DeVote but a little less feedback resistant. Frankly all microphones (even small diaphragm condensers) will eventually feedback. When you put any decent condenser microphone on a Double Bass, bleed will occur due to the instruments size. At least my experience. I use the Remic DB 5400 and 5400 LB
Thank you so much Ira!I wasn't aware about Remic microphones...They seem to be very promising!
Hi Jimmy,
You mentioned that you're interested in the Neumann MCM. I noticed earlier in this thread that someone had posted frequency response curves and polar patterns for the MCM when it came out a few years ago. It's funny, because I had posted this same info yesterday in a different online marketplace.
As you can see from the response curve, the mic really drops off right where a lot of your fundamentals are on the bass. I'm not sure how you feel about that. I'm about to find out tonight when using the mics on a grand piano. As a sound engineer, my thought would be that the musician would want to capture the full range of his/her instrument with the mic and let the engineer do any rolling off or shaping to suit the needs of the room and the ensemble. And when recording, I'd imagine, again, that you'd want to capture the full range of the instrument and "fix it in the mix" (if necessary).
To throw another suggestion at you, have you looked at the Applied Microphone Technology (AMT) family of mics. He does basically the same thing that other mic companies do - developing one mic element and then packaging it into different mounting setups - and he's been doing it for a long time. I've had his grand piano mic, the M40, and it's very nice. His mic setup for contrabass is similar to the DPA, Neumann and Prodipe schemes. Just another name and price point to research!! I do have to add a word of caution: I've been trying for several weeks to get a hold of the guy to do some servicing on my mic, but he's not responded to phone calls or emails, and now his voice mail is full and won't accept messages. I don't know what's going on and have asked for info on Gearspace to see if anyone has heard any news.
Finally, my parting words for today are that earlier in this thread I mentioned that I had gotten the Remics for contrabass, cello and violin for a Netflix project I did last year. They're great mics - again, the same element but packaged into different mounts. I'm not using them enough to justify keeping them around, and so I'm selling them. My work with contrabass players is mostly in a symphony setting; the players have no vested interest in mics and most of the time they object to be miked in the first place! They prefer, when forced, to use the DPA only because it's easy to come onstage 5 minutes before downbeat, fit the mic to their instrument, do their other little preps and go. The Remic, on the other hand, if feel is more a player's mic than an engineer's mic - it takes a bit of time (a couple of minutes rather than a couple of seconds) to learn how and where to mount the mic on the instrument. I think if the muso took the time, they'd find it gave a superior sound to the DPA, one reason being the reduced leakage and another being the choice of mounting locations which allows the Remic to accentuate different tonal balances depending on placement and playing style. I hope I'm not sounding too crass here, but I have the 5400LB for bass (and one for cello and one for violin/viola) selling on the Reverb site at a very competitive price. If you wanted to get it thru here, you'd save on the sales taxes and I'd save on the Reverb fees.
https://reverb.com/item/85014824-re...-d5400lb-double-bass-mic-for-live-performance
You mentioned that you're interested in the Neumann MCM. I noticed earlier in this thread that someone had posted frequency response curves and polar patterns for the MCM when it came out a few years ago. It's funny, because I had posted this same info yesterday in a different online marketplace.
As you can see from the response curve, the mic really drops off right where a lot of your fundamentals are on the bass. I'm not sure how you feel about that. I'm about to find out tonight when using the mics on a grand piano. As a sound engineer, my thought would be that the musician would want to capture the full range of his/her instrument with the mic and let the engineer do any rolling off or shaping to suit the needs of the room and the ensemble. And when recording, I'd imagine, again, that you'd want to capture the full range of the instrument and "fix it in the mix" (if necessary).
To throw another suggestion at you, have you looked at the Applied Microphone Technology (AMT) family of mics. He does basically the same thing that other mic companies do - developing one mic element and then packaging it into different mounting setups - and he's been doing it for a long time. I've had his grand piano mic, the M40, and it's very nice. His mic setup for contrabass is similar to the DPA, Neumann and Prodipe schemes. Just another name and price point to research!! I do have to add a word of caution: I've been trying for several weeks to get a hold of the guy to do some servicing on my mic, but he's not responded to phone calls or emails, and now his voice mail is full and won't accept messages. I don't know what's going on and have asked for info on Gearspace to see if anyone has heard any news.
Finally, my parting words for today are that earlier in this thread I mentioned that I had gotten the Remics for contrabass, cello and violin for a Netflix project I did last year. They're great mics - again, the same element but packaged into different mounts. I'm not using them enough to justify keeping them around, and so I'm selling them. My work with contrabass players is mostly in a symphony setting; the players have no vested interest in mics and most of the time they object to be miked in the first place! They prefer, when forced, to use the DPA only because it's easy to come onstage 5 minutes before downbeat, fit the mic to their instrument, do their other little preps and go. The Remic, on the other hand, if feel is more a player's mic than an engineer's mic - it takes a bit of time (a couple of minutes rather than a couple of seconds) to learn how and where to mount the mic on the instrument. I think if the muso took the time, they'd find it gave a superior sound to the DPA, one reason being the reduced leakage and another being the choice of mounting locations which allows the Remic to accentuate different tonal balances depending on placement and playing style. I hope I'm not sounding too crass here, but I have the 5400LB for bass (and one for cello and one for violin/viola) selling on the Reverb site at a very competitive price. If you wanted to get it thru here, you'd save on the sales taxes and I'd save on the Reverb fees.
https://reverb.com/item/85014824-re...-d5400lb-double-bass-mic-for-live-performance
You may find this thread interested: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/the-new-mini-xlson-mic-new-videos-added-sunday-10-12.1660745/
Have you listened to the YouTube comparisons between the ATM350 and DPA? To my ears the ATM is a bit more natural sounding. The DPA seems to have slightly better isolation and cut through a bit more. So I think the DPA would probably be slightly better for live work.
I have some experience with an AMT S25B one of my peers bought. It sounded great through the PA when the bass was playing solo. Gain before feedback through a stage amp was too low to be useful. Also it picked up excessive bleed from other sound sources. In particular, it picked up more cymbals than bass, and the cymbals had a harsh phasey quality. He tried blending the mic with a Realist Copperhead through a D-Tar Solstice preamp/blender. I felt adding any of the mic degraded the sound. After a couple of months of experiments, the AMT was sold.
For context the AMT was tried in concert band and big band settings.
Jimmy,
The Remic DB 5400 is a great recording microphone, but if you’re going to use it live than the Remic DB 5400LB (Green) is infinitely more feedback resistant.
Hey Ira, thank you so much for the deeper insight!
I didn't notice the response curve that is already exists on the net ,to be honest...
Surely i agree with that you said about the musician that would want to capture the full range of his instrument with the mic etc....
The AMT is also a totally new to me...I guess I'll have to check these mics them too haha.
Thanks about the Remic you sell... I would consider buying it but i will have issues with the customs...
I saw they have a sale period though in the company.I could order from them directly if i finally end up to that choice!
Hi Jimmy,
I’ve bought all my Remics - grand piano, contrabass, cello, violin - from Bluetone in Wanroij, The Netherlands. Oscar, there, is very nice to work with, and when he’s not busy in his studio he’s prompt at getting back to me
. Tell him I sent you and maybe he’ll include a free sticker or something 
.One other name I don’t think was mentioned here is the Prodipe. They’re based in France, I believe. There are some mic “shootout” videos comparing the Prodipe, DPA and Audio Technica. One more thing to make you crazy(er) Jimmy, but it was all part of my journey and now yours, too. Good Luck!!
The MCM 114 with the KK14 capsule is directional, so you have to consider proximity effect. This response plot is from: Miniature Clip Mic System MCM
As you bring the mic closer to the sound source the low frequency response fills in. This plot indicates the low frequency response is flat and extended with the capsule within 15cm of the sound source. If the capsule is brought closer to the sound source, I would expect the lows to become increasingly stronger (boosted).
Most directional mics exhibit proximity effect and I believe it is directly relative to how directional the capsule is. More directional usually results in stronger proximity effect.
Here is response plot for a Beyerdynamic M88TG
+4dB of bass boost at 10cm and +12dB at 2cm.
The proximity effect is actually useful. When the tone is adjusted to pick up flat response from the instrument, the lows are rolled off for distant sound sources. This will reduce the tendency for a low frequency feedback loop to form between the speaker and mic. It will also reduce how much low frequency bleed the mic picks up from other sound sources such as keys, guitar, drums, etc.
I just started a "little comparison" between the Neumann MCM, the Schoeps, the Sandhill and the Brauner Phantom...
It is a continuation of the comparison with the Remic mentioned here:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/dpa-mics.1664129/page-2#post-28842236
It is a continuation of the comparison with the Remic mentioned here:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/dpa-mics.1664129/page-2#post-28842236
Update
The new Remic Reshape DB mic is avaliable with a Supercardioid capsule. Since both the revered Schoeps CMC 6/MK41 and the Remic Reshape are Supercardioid
I’m very interested in demoing the new Remic which also has a detachable soft foam mounting block.
The new Remic Reshape DB mic is avaliable with a Supercardioid capsule. Since both the revered Schoeps CMC 6/MK41 and the Remic Reshape are Supercardioid
I’m very interested in demoing the new Remic which also has a detachable soft foam mounting block.
For LaFaro:
These are great pics of your testing setup. I'd like to make some comments, based on my experience working as a sound engineer for a major symphony orchestra and various big bands and jazz ensembles -
I'm sure you realize that your testing setup will result in a good comparison of the mics IN THAT TESTING ENVIRONMENT. One of the most important aspects of the mics you're interested in is how they'll react in the setting that you're playing in and the reason you're miking your instrument in the first place.
Your choice of mics will be governed, and might change, if you're playing for a recording or for amplification during a show. If recording, are you playing in a studio or during a live performance?
In both of the above scenarios, what else is in the vicinity of your area on stage? Are you in a section of contrabasses, with brass or percussion nearby? Are you set up next to a drum kit, like in a big band or jazz ensemble situation? Do you have the ability to have any plexi shields or sound-absorbing gobos around you?
Because not only do you need to compare the qualities of the mics in a place like your testing environment, but you also need to be concerned (or not) about leakage from other instruments. The DPAs, Neumanns, Prodipe e,g,, will perform great if you're a solo player or can isolate yourself on a stage. But if you're playing next to a drum kit in a big band, the DPA will be VERY problematic (I won't rile up others here by saying "worthless"). And so a pickup or very close mic - like the Yamahiko or Remic - will probably serve you better. If you WANT the leakage, or have to have the most natural-sounding leakage as possible like in a symphony setting, Neumanns, Schoeps, DPAs, Royers, etc are your choices.
I just got a pair of Neumann MCMs and have used them on grand piano with the lid on short stick. They sounded good with the placements I did, and the leakage from drums and a guitar amp was manageable and was a little less than 4099s, which many engineers swear by. I think the MCMs would sound even better with a solo piano and the lid on tall stick or removed. I still felt I wanted my Yamahiko or Accusound for the bottom 2 octaves and for feeds to on-stage monitors.
One of the things I like about the Remic - and they point it out in numerous online videos - is that you have a choice of 3 placements of the mic, and each positioning brings out different tonal qualities in your instrument and your playing style. The DPAs, Prodipe and Neumanns can't do that. I didn't know about the Remic supercardioid option; I'll have to check it out.
Unfortunately, MY experience with the Remic is that they're great for a musician who owns one and is miking his/her own instrument. If you're the engineer trying to get bass players to cooperate with you by agreeing to use the Remic, they don't want to be bothered - the Remic does take a bit of setup time (extra seconds) versus the simplicity of the clip-on DPA, which most players, by now, are familiar with. The symphony players I work with want to come on stage just barely before downbeat and they want to head for the exits (and the bar) before bows.
PS Other "stand mics" you should try are the Beyer M160, along with the Royer R-121 or R-122. Both are great ribbon mics with different and interesting characteristics. (And the rabbit hole gets deeper...)
These are great pics of your testing setup. I'd like to make some comments, based on my experience working as a sound engineer for a major symphony orchestra and various big bands and jazz ensembles -
I'm sure you realize that your testing setup will result in a good comparison of the mics IN THAT TESTING ENVIRONMENT. One of the most important aspects of the mics you're interested in is how they'll react in the setting that you're playing in and the reason you're miking your instrument in the first place.
Your choice of mics will be governed, and might change, if you're playing for a recording or for amplification during a show. If recording, are you playing in a studio or during a live performance?
In both of the above scenarios, what else is in the vicinity of your area on stage? Are you in a section of contrabasses, with brass or percussion nearby? Are you set up next to a drum kit, like in a big band or jazz ensemble situation? Do you have the ability to have any plexi shields or sound-absorbing gobos around you?
Because not only do you need to compare the qualities of the mics in a place like your testing environment, but you also need to be concerned (or not) about leakage from other instruments. The DPAs, Neumanns, Prodipe e,g,, will perform great if you're a solo player or can isolate yourself on a stage. But if you're playing next to a drum kit in a big band, the DPA will be VERY problematic (I won't rile up others here by saying "worthless"). And so a pickup or very close mic - like the Yamahiko or Remic - will probably serve you better. If you WANT the leakage, or have to have the most natural-sounding leakage as possible like in a symphony setting, Neumanns, Schoeps, DPAs, Royers, etc are your choices.
I just got a pair of Neumann MCMs and have used them on grand piano with the lid on short stick. They sounded good with the placements I did, and the leakage from drums and a guitar amp was manageable and was a little less than 4099s, which many engineers swear by. I think the MCMs would sound even better with a solo piano and the lid on tall stick or removed. I still felt I wanted my Yamahiko or Accusound for the bottom 2 octaves and for feeds to on-stage monitors.
One of the things I like about the Remic - and they point it out in numerous online videos - is that you have a choice of 3 placements of the mic, and each positioning brings out different tonal qualities in your instrument and your playing style. The DPAs, Prodipe and Neumanns can't do that. I didn't know about the Remic supercardioid option; I'll have to check it out.
Unfortunately, MY experience with the Remic is that they're great for a musician who owns one and is miking his/her own instrument. If you're the engineer trying to get bass players to cooperate with you by agreeing to use the Remic, they don't want to be bothered - the Remic does take a bit of setup time (extra seconds) versus the simplicity of the clip-on DPA, which most players, by now, are familiar with. The symphony players I work with want to come on stage just barely before downbeat and they want to head for the exits (and the bar) before bows.
PS Other "stand mics" you should try are the Beyer M160, along with the Royer R-121 or R-122. Both are great ribbon mics with different and interesting characteristics. (And the rabbit hole gets deeper...)
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Man I really like the idea of the Remic reshape, but I wonder about this placement (off 90o) for a super cardioid. Seems like the response would be odd.
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