New Ampeg Venture Series

[SoulReflection]

Band practice bumped for this week (drummer has COVID - drummers...), so not yet. As previously noted, they are definitely mid-forward, but really respond well to the Ultra Lo + setting. They are super light, but I'll admit, I am a little concerned about long-term durability.

Drummer's long-term durability?

 

[tombowlus]

Drummer's long-term durability?

LOL! Actually, this particular drummer has been through a lot (and still ticking), so I'm not sure if that's good or bad. I'll go with "more durable than expected, all things considered."

 

[Moondog]

Yes. I commented on the Venture 112 and 115 a few pages back.

Thanks Tom. I somehow got lost in the thread and missed your post.

BTW, what is it that makes you concerned about the durability?

 

[tombowlus]

Thanks Tom. I somehow got lost in the thread and missed your post.

BTW, what is it that makes you concerned about the durability?

I could be wrong, but many times, things that feel thin and light are not as durable as things which are thicker and heavier. Again, I could be wrong, and they may hold up just fine. But my old 410HE's feel like they could tumble down a flight of steps and still work just fine. I don't think I want to try that with these (or many other modern cabs).

 

[Moondog]

I could be wrong, but many times, things that feel thin and light are not as durable as things which are thicker and heavier. Again, I could be wrong, and they may hold up just fine. But my old 410HE's feel like they could tumble down a flight of steps and still work just fine. I don't think I want to try that with these (or many other modern cabs).

Yeah, I'm sure that manufacturers must make some compromises to get the weight down. Plus it's a perceptual thing, things that are heavier tend to feel more durable, although that is not always the case. Companies rarely state what their manufacturing specs and methods are, so it's hard to tell until some accident happens and then one finds out how durable it is.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I could be wrong, but many times, things that feel thin and light are not as durable as things which are thicker and heavier.

But things that are thicker and heavier, I have a tendency to drop.

 

[Moondog]

But things that are thicker and heavier, I have a tendency to drop.

Yeah, me too!

Which is why I prefer lightweight cabs as long as there's no obvious downside.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Yeah, me too!

Which is why I prefer lightweight cabs as long as there's no obvious downside.

 

[agedhorse]

It depends on how a product is built and how it's handled. Often, heavier products suffer more when dropped.

 

[Jim C]

Aircraft is a great example of stronger and lighter through computer design and modeling as well as high tech materials.
MI equipment is not worth the investment IMO, although GR Bass and carbon fiber could end up being the boutique darling. I wonder how any years before they break even in this business?

 

[agedhorse]

Aircraft is a great example of stronger and lighter through computer design and modeling as well as high tech materials.
MI equipment is not worth the investment IMO.

Composites in aircraft applications require a lot of heavy duty engineering, design skills and testing. Even then, there are all kinds of things that must be avoided to prevent premature failures and unexpected events.

For example, during the various Airbus and Boeing projects using composite components, such as the A320/321, A350, A380, and 737, 757, 787, an astonishing amount of basic research preceded any component design work just to quantify various processes associated with structural composites.

Here's a informative paper on the impacts of composites compared with traditional materials, things that most folks wouldn't have ever considered become critical under some conditions that don't affect traditional materials.

Safe operations with composite aircraft | Safety First

I have studied some aspects of composite design, and I'm pretty sure that Al Kraft has experience in this field as well. Mine goes back to working for Kaman Music, the original parent company of Ovation guitars. I spent a good deal of time studying the process and the potential pitfalls regarding the manufacturing process which came as a byproduct of Kaman Aircraft which was a very early adopter of structural composites in high lift helicopter rotors (which were inter-meshing). The backs of the Ovation guitars are manufactured using composites, not just for weight (which there was no real world savings) but for the ability to create shapes that were impossible using traditional materials, as well as for increased consistency and acoustic properties that all owed for them to be the first practical high production volume electric-acoustic guitar suitable for touring in high stage volume environments.

My experiences strongly suggest that if impact resistance is accounted for in the design so that the cabinets are as impact resistant as plywood, and that the joints and corners are as strong, the weight and cost increases to where much of the benefits disappear. The other issue with composites, especially manufacturing in California, is that the hazardous materials (handling, permits and disposal) can be shockingly high and these must be accounted for in the final price. Time will tell if the process becomes more environmentally friendly overall which might change these metrics down the road.

 

[seamonkey]

IMHO

Positioning Yamaha's Ampeg Venture Series Amplifiers vs. Line-6 Modeling Products

In the realm of bass amplifiers, two distinct approaches have emerged: analog and modeling. Yamaha, with its Ampeg Venture Series, champions the analog approach, while Line-6 has become synonymous with digital modeling. Each approach has its own merits and appeals to different audiences.

The Ampeg Venture Series: Embracing Analog Purity

Yamaha's Ampeg Venture Series amplifiers boast a purely analog signal path, emphasizing the authenticity and warmth of traditional analog sound. This decision aligns with the long-standing reputation of Ampeg, a brand deeply rooted in the analog legacy of bass amplification.

Despite Ampeg's claim that "All circuitry is analog except for the solid-state Class D amplifiers," it's important to clarify that Class D amplifiers are indeed considered part of the analog domain. This distinction highlights Ampeg's commitment to preserving the unadulterated analog experience for its bass-playing clientele.

Line-6: The Proponent of Modeling Versatility

In contrast, Line-6 has established itself as a pioneer in bass amplifier modeling, utilizing digital technology to recreate the sounds of renowned amplifiers with remarkable accuracy. Their flagship product, the Helix, is a testament to their expertise in modeling, offering a vast array of emulated amp sounds, effects, and routing options.

Why Pure Analog Matters (or Doesn't)

The debate between pure analog and modeling approaches often centers on the perceived impact on sound quality. While some believe that analog inherently produces a superior tone, others argue that the advancements in digital modeling have rendered these differences negligible.

In reality, the choice between analog and modeling is often a matter of personal preference and stylistic considerations. Some bassists prefer the tactile immediacy and nuances of analog circuits, while others embrace the versatility and convenience of modeling technology.

Marketing and Perception: The Role of Brand Identity

Yamaha and Line-6 capitalize on the distinct identities of their respective brands in their marketing strategies. Yamaha leverages Ampeg's legacy to emphasize the authenticity of the Venture Series's analog signal path, while Line-6 touts the Helix's modeling capabilities and vast library of emulated sounds.

Ampeg's Analog Modeling and Line-6's Future

Ampeg's introduction of the Venture Series signifies a strategic move to differentiate itself from Line-6's modeling-centric product line. While Line-6 is likely to incorporate Ampeg-specific modeling into its future offerings, the company is unlikely to adopt a pure analog approach in its core products.

Conclusion: A Tale of Two Approaches

The Ampeg Venture Series and Line-6 modeling products represent two distinct approaches to bass amplification, each with its own strengths and appeal. Yamaha's commitment to analog purity resonates with those who value the authenticity of traditional tone, while Line-6's modeling prowess caters to bassists seeking versatility and a wide range of sonic possibilities. Ultimately, the choice between these approaches is a personal one, guided by individual preferences and stylistic considerations.

 

[adje]

IMHO

Positioning Yamaha's Ampeg Venture Series Amplifiers vs. Line-6 Modeling Products

In the realm of bass amplifiers, two distinct approaches have emerged: analog and modeling. Yamaha, with its Ampeg Venture Series, champions the analog approach, while Line-6 has become synonymous with digital modeling. Each approach has its own merits and appeals to different audiences.

The Ampeg Venture Series: Embracing Analog Purity

Yamaha's Ampeg Venture Series amplifiers boast a purely analog signal path, emphasizing the authenticity and warmth of traditional analog sound. This decision aligns with the long-standing reputation of Ampeg, a brand deeply rooted in the analog legacy of bass amplification.

Despite Ampeg's claim that "All circuitry is analog except for the solid-state Class D amplifiers," it's important to clarify that Class D amplifiers are indeed considered part of the analog domain. This distinction highlights Ampeg's commitment to preserving the unadulterated analog experience for its bass-playing clientele.

Line-6: The Proponent of Modeling Versatility

In contrast, Line-6 has established itself as a pioneer in bass amplifier modeling, utilizing digital technology to recreate the sounds of renowned amplifiers with remarkable accuracy. Their flagship product, the Helix, is a testament to their expertise in modeling, offering a vast array of emulated amp sounds, effects, and routing options.

Why Pure Analog Matters (or Doesn't)

The debate between pure analog and modeling approaches often centers on the perceived impact on sound quality. While some believe that analog inherently produces a superior tone, others argue that the advancements in digital modeling have rendered these differences negligible.

In reality, the choice between analog and modeling is often a matter of personal preference and stylistic considerations. Some bassists prefer the tactile immediacy and nuances of analog circuits, while others embrace the versatility and convenience of modeling technology.

Marketing and Perception: The Role of Brand Identity

Yamaha and Line-6 capitalize on the distinct identities of their respective brands in their marketing strategies. Yamaha leverages Ampeg's legacy to emphasize the authenticity of the Venture Series's analog signal path, while Line-6 touts the Helix's modeling capabilities and vast library of emulated sounds.

Ampeg's Analog Modeling and Line-6's Future

Ampeg's introduction of the Venture Series signifies a strategic move to differentiate itself from Line-6's modeling-centric product line. While Line-6 is likely to incorporate Ampeg-specific modeling into its future offerings, the company is unlikely to adopt a pure analog approach in its core products.

Conclusion: A Tale of Two Approaches

The Ampeg Venture Series and Line-6 modeling products represent two distinct approaches to bass amplification, each with its own strengths and appeal. Yamaha's commitment to analog purity resonates with those who value the authenticity of traditional tone, while Line-6's modeling prowess caters to bassists seeking versatility and a wide range of sonic possibilities. Ultimately, the choice between these approaches is a personal one, guided by individual preferences and stylistic considerations.

Funny thing is of course that both Ampeg and Line 6 are under the umbrella of Yamaha Guitar Group, Inc.

 

[agedhorse]

Funny thing is of course that both Ampeg and Line 6 are under the umbrella of Yamaha Guitar Group, Inc.

That was the point. Same parent company, 2 different approaches.

 

[adje]

That was the point. Same parent company, 2 different approaches.

I got lost in the lengthy juxtaposition, seamonkey's opening "IMHO" threw me off the scent LOL.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

The backs of the Ovation guitars are manufactured using composites, not just for weight (which there was no real world savings) but for the ability to create shapes that were impossible using traditional materials, as well as for increased consistency and acoustic properties that all owed for them to be the first practical high production volume electric-acoustic guitar suitable for touring in high stage volume environments.

Unfortunately the composite backs on these Ovation guitars also have the rather serious problem that when the wooden top shrinks over time the composite back doesn't. And guess what happens?

I see more and more Ovations guitars with this exact problem at the workshop... and they're usually well past the point of repairs. At least any repair I would consider even remotely cost effective.

Composite materials can be superb but they can also be a disaster if they're mixed with organic materials like wood.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Unfortunately the composite backs on these Ovation guitars also have the rather serious problem that when the wooden top shrinks over time the composite back doesn't. And guess what happens?

A longtime friend of mine has a couple of Ovations from way back. I have seen some interesting effects on the top from his having lived in Houston for a few years.

 

[agedhorse]

Unfortunately the composite backs on these Ovation guitars also have the rather serious problem that when the wooden top shrinks over time the composite back doesn't. And guess what happens?

I see more and more Ovations guitars with this exact problem at the workshop... and they're usually well past the point of repairs. At least any repair I would consider even remotely cost effective.

Composite materials can be superb but they can also be a disaster if they're mixed with organic materials like wood.

This is one of the "unintended consequences of composites" that can occur under extreme temperature/humidity swings. That said, on the Ovation guitars, many are 40- 50 years old by now, and were used in situations that most folks would never subject their "choice" guitars to because of the potential for damage to all wood built guitars too. In reality, with the number of guitars sold and how hard they were generally used, they weren't any less reliable than other guitars and in some ways they didn't suffer from other issues either.

 

[gtirard]

This is one of the "unintended consequences of composites" that can occur under extreme temperature/humidity swings. That said, on the Ovation guitars, many are 40- 50 years old by now, and were used in situations that most folks would never subject their "choice" guitars to because of the potential for damage to all wood built guitars too. In reality, with the number of guitars sold and how hard they were generally used, they weren't any less reliable than other guitars and in some ways they didn't suffer from other issues either.

Agree. I have a 40 years old Ovation, it was stored over the years in different places where the temperature and humidity vary a lot, and it's still intact. Not sure a wooden acoustic guitar would be so well preserved.

 

[Jim C]

Composites in aircraft applications require a lot of heavy duty engineering, design skills and testing. Even then, there are all kinds of things that must be avoided to prevent premature failures and unexpected events.

For example, during the various Airbus and Boeing projects using composite components, such as the A320/321, A350, A380, and 737, 757, 787, an astonishing amount of basic research preceded any component design work just to quantify various processes associated with structural composites.

Here's a informative paper on the impacts of composites compared with traditional materials, things that most folks wouldn't have ever considered become critical under some conditions that don't affect traditional materials.

Safe operations with composite aircraft | Safety First

I have studied some aspects of composite design, and I'm pretty sure that Al Kraft has experience in this field as well. Mine goes back to working for Kaman Music, the original parent company of Ovation guitars. I spent a good deal of time studying the process and the potential pitfalls regarding the manufacturing process which came as a byproduct of Kaman Aircraft which was a very early adopter of structural composites in high lift helicopter rotors (which were inter-meshing). The backs of the Ovation guitars are manufactured using composites, not just for weight (which there was no real world savings) but for the ability to create shapes that were impossible using traditional materials, as well as for increased consistency and acoustic properties that all owed for them to be the first practical high production volume electric-acoustic guitar suitable for touring in high stage volume environments.

My experiences strongly suggest that if impact resistance is accounted for in the design so that the cabinets are as impact resistant as plywood, and that the joints and corners are as strong, the weight and cost increases to where much of the benefits disappear. The other issue with composites, especially manufacturing in California, is that the hazardous materials (handling, permits and disposal) can be shockingly high and these must be accounted for in the final price. Time will tell if the process becomes more environmentally friendly overall which might change these metrics down the road.

Thanks for this Andy. I won't reply hear so as to keep this thread on target.
I'm such a simpleton; I'm blown away just observing structural integrity modeled in Solidworks and how changing material thickness, bend radius, or alloy number for a simple bracket can be instantly studied. Love the ultrasonic testing tool too.

Ovation guitars - We had a reasonably high end Ovation in the studio during the mid 80's. It sounded beautiful and often times was a better fit in the track than the artists own Martin when recorded acoustically. The blue front and the plastic back was really hard for people to get past until they heard a playback. Even then, it was just too modern looking for some. I wouldn't have cared if it was made from Lego's if it sounded great.