New Ampeg Venture Series

[DJ Bebop]

The marketing side of these is stupid. Did they really design a 700w (@4ohm) head that would overpower the 300w 210 and 250w 115 (both 8ohm)? Is the 410 the only cab that can be hooked up to the V12?

The 8x8 cab that can't handle the V12 is just the icing on that cake.

The impression given to me by marketing is that the amp design team and cab design team didn't talk to each other and designed a series of mismatched products.

I guess they figured the end user would be careful about picking heads and cabinets and combining them together when most companies design their line to work together naturally? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[pisces_bass]

Maybe they figured there’s enough options for 2-ohm load amps from other manufacturers that people could figure out how to run two of the new 8x8’s safely?

I ran a SWR Henry the 8x8 many years ago. Great cab. This one handles more power at around half the weight. The MiniFridge is a cool look too!

 

[Lowbrow]

Maybe they figured there’s enough options for 2-ohm load amps from other manufacturers that people could figure out how to run two of the new 8x8’s safely?

It’s correct that there are plenty of amps that operate at 2 ohms; this passage is specific to the V12 (until someone gets wise and corrects it.)

 

[pisces_bass]

It’s correct that there are plenty of amps that operate at 2 ohms, this passage is specific to the V12 (until someone gets wise and corrects it.)

If they are smart, they’ll correct the recommendation to running a master/slave rig with 2xV7’s for a pair of 8x8’s.

 

[Anthony Fregoso]

The marketing side of these is stupid. Did they really design a 700w (@4ohm) head that would overpower the 300w 210 and 250w 115 (both 8ohm)? Is the 410 the only cab that can be hooked up to the V12?

The 8x8 cab that can't handle the V12 is just the icing on that cake.

The impression given to me by marketing is that the amp design team and cab design team didn't talk to each other and designed a series of mismatched products.

I can totally understand why you would have that impression, so let me try help you understand what is going on here. The Venture heads power rating was derived from driving an increasing amplitude sine wave stimulus (3dB crest factor) to the onset of clipping (1% THD). The corresponding RMS value of power at 1% THD is locked in as the amplifier RMS power rating. Some other companies may use a short duration impulse stimulus which will result in a larger power rating... Unfortunately, how the rating was derived is seldom told to the consumers. The Venture cabs power rating was derived from thermal "step up" testing utilizing an IEC shaped pink noise (6dB crest factor). Each cab had to survive 2 hours at is rated power with this stimulus without having the motor temperature pass the curie temperature of the Neo magnet. With the cab RMS power spec locked in, 100 hour life testing was then conducted using IEC shaped pink noise (9dB crest factor)... the stimulus RMS level was backed down by 3dB allowing the motor structure to not overheat and demagnetize while fully pushing the mechanical limits for 100 hours, peak power was maintained. So what on earth does this mean???? The peak power that the amplifier can deliver is 2 times the rated power... and the peak power that the cabinets can take is 4 times the rated power. Considering that the typical electrical signal coming out of a bass rig is between 20dB to 9dB crest factor, there is plenty of headroom designed into the cabs.... as a side note 4dB crest factor was observed during destructive testing.

Yes I 100% agree with you that the specs make it look like a "series of mismatched products." The reality is that the cabs have ample headroom to handle the suggested corresponding heads. Also, everyone working on the cab project was also contributing to the head project... not really two teams.

While I'm on here, do not plug 2 VB-88 cabs into a V12. If driven hard enough it will trigger the AC input overcurrent protection and momentarily drop audio. When they eventually put the correct owners manual up on the web site it will explicitly say not to do this.

Who am I and why the heck should you care what I just wrote? I am the former Systems Engineering Manager for Yamaha guitar group and lead the design effort for venture cabs as well as a contributing engineer for the venture heads.

Cheers,

 

[DJ Bebop]

I can totally understand why you would have that impression, so let me try help you understand what is going on here. The Venture heads power rating was derived from driving an increasing amplitude sine wave stimulus (3dB crest factor) to the onset of clipping (1% THD). The corresponding RMS value of power at 1% THD is locked in as the amplifier RMS power rating. Some other companies may use a short duration impulse stimulus which will result in a larger power rating... Unfortunately, how the rating was derived is seldom told to the consumers. The Venture cabs power rating was derived from thermal "step up" testing utilizing an IEC shaped pink noise (6dB crest factor). Each cab had to survive 2 hours at is rated power with this stimulus without having the motor temperature pass the curie temperature of the Neo magnet. With the cab RMS power spec locked in, 100 hour life testing was then conducted using IEC shaped pink noise (9dB crest factor)... the stimulus RMS level was backed down by 3dB allowing the motor structure to not overheat and demagnetize while fully pushing the mechanical limits for 100 hours, peak power was maintained. So what on earth does this mean???? The peak power that the amplifier can deliver is 2 times the rated power... and the peak power that the cabinets can take is 4 times the rated power. Considering that the typical electrical signal coming out of a bass rig is between 20dB to 9dB crest factor, there is plenty of headroom designed into the cabs.... as a side note 4dB crest factor was observed during destructive testing.

Yes I 100% agree with you that the specs make it look like a "series of mismatched products." The reality is that the cabs have ample headroom to handle the suggested corresponding heads. Also, everyone working on the cab project was also contributing to the head project... not really two teams.

While I'm on here, do not plug 2 VB-88 cabs into a V12. If driven hard enough it will trigger the AC input overcurrent protection and momentarily drop audio. When they eventually put the correct owners manual up on the web site it will explicitly say not to do this.

Who am I and why the heck should you care what I just wrote? I am the former Systems Engineering Manager for Yamaha guitar group and lead the design effort for venture cabs as well as a contributing engineer for the venture heads.

Cheers,

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

Mr Fregoso. That was an excellent and concise description of how this ratings stuff works. Thanks.

Mr Bebop. Sometimes you post things that just crack me up. Thanks.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Mr Fregoso. That was an excellent, and concise description of how this ratings stuff works. Thanks.

Mr Bebop. Sometimes you post things that just crack me up. Thanks.

 

[Monstercastle]

Has there been any more definitive ship date yet for the V7? My GK Neo212 4ohm is the only cab I intend to own, and therefore the V7 is a better fit than the V12 as the cab handles 800 watts. I could be careful with the 12 I suppose, but I can wait.

 

[_Some Dude]

I can totally understand why you would have that impression, so let me try help you understand what is going on here. The Venture heads power rating was derived from driving an increasing amplitude sine wave stimulus (3dB crest factor) to the onset of clipping (1% THD). The corresponding RMS value of power at 1% THD is locked in as the amplifier RMS power rating. Some other companies may use a short duration impulse stimulus which will result in a larger power rating... Unfortunately, how the rating was derived is seldom told to the consumers. The Venture cabs power rating was derived from thermal "step up" testing utilizing an IEC shaped pink noise (6dB crest factor). Each cab had to survive 2 hours at is rated power with this stimulus without having the motor temperature pass the curie temperature of the Neo magnet. With the cab RMS power spec locked in, 100 hour life testing was then conducted using IEC shaped pink noise (9dB crest factor)... the stimulus RMS level was backed down by 3dB allowing the motor structure to not overheat and demagnetize while fully pushing the mechanical limits for 100 hours, peak power was maintained. So what on earth does this mean???? The peak power that the amplifier can deliver is 2 times the rated power... and the peak power that the cabinets can take is 4 times the rated power. Considering that the typical electrical signal coming out of a bass rig is between 20dB to 9dB crest factor, there is plenty of headroom designed into the cabs.... as a side note 4dB crest factor was observed during destructive testing.

Yes I 100% agree with you that the specs make it look like a "series of mismatched products." The reality is that the cabs have ample headroom to handle the suggested corresponding heads. Also, everyone working on the cab project was also contributing to the head project... not really two teams.

While I'm on here, do not plug 2 VB-88 cabs into a V12. If driven hard enough it will trigger the AC input overcurrent protection and momentarily drop audio. When they eventually put the correct owners manual up on the web site it will explicitly say not to do this.

Who am I and why the heck should you care what I just wrote? I am the former Systems Engineering Manager for Yamaha guitar group and lead the design effort for venture cabs as well as a contributing engineer for the venture heads.

Cheers,

First off, thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate it.

What I see (focusing on the marketing side here), is a series of amps listed as 1200w/700w/300w RMS @ 4ohm.

I have to assume those amps produce 600w/350w/150w @ 8ohm, as I can't find that stated anywhere in the website or manuals.

I then have a series of cabs that are rated for 600w/500w/300w/250w/250w RMS @ 8ohm.

My assumption based on the marketing is that the V12 only works with the 410, the V7 with the 410 or 212 (and 88), and the V3 will work with any of them.

As someone who's potentially interested in a V7 as a lightweight alternative to my SVT/810E/212AV, being locked into a 410/212 or bigger makes me feel like my hands are tied. If a 210 or 115 are an option, it's not obvious based on the marketing material.

If those two cabs are safe to use with a V7, I'd suggest that the marketing could be improved. If they're not an option, then ignore everything I've said. A lot of my complaint is that it seems like the 210/115 should be compatible with a 700w amp, but the marketing is telling me otherwise.

The reality is that the cabs have ample headroom to handle the suggested corresponding heads.

I looked around, but couldn't find a list of suggested corresponding heads/cabs.

 

[Anthony Fregoso]

First off, thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate it.

What I see (focusing on the marketing side here), is a series of amps listed as 1200w/700w/300w RMS @ 4ohm.

I have to assume those amps produce 600w/350w/150w @ 8ohm, as I can't find that stated anywhere in the website or manuals.

I then have a series of cabs that are rated for 600w/500w/300w/250w/250w RMS @ 8ohm.

My assumption based on the marketing is that the V12 only works with the 410, the V7 with the 410 or 212 (and 88), and the V3 will work with any of them.

As someone who's potentially interested in a V7 as a lightweight alternative to my SVT/810E/212AV, being locked into a 410/212 or bigger makes me feel like my hands are tied. If a 210 or 115 are an option, it's not obvious based on the marketing material.

If those two cabs are safe to use with a V7, I'd suggest that the marketing could be improved. If they're not an option, then ignore everything I've said. A lot of my complaint is that it seems like the 210/115 should be compatible with a 700w amp, but the marketing is telling me otherwise.

I looked around, but couldn't find a list of suggested corresponding heads/cabs.

I agree, the marketing material could be stand to be cleaned up and made to be more clear... I can't really help with that because I don't work there anymore, but lets see if I can help.
Yes the assumption of the amplifier RMS power @8 ohms being half of the 4ohm RMS power rating is correct. This will mean that the amplifier peak power ratings @8 ohms will be 1200w/700w/300w. The cabinet peak power handling is 6dB or 4 times the RMS rating so it looks like the 210 and 115 have enough headroom to handle the peak output capability of the V7... assuming that most of the energy is at or above port tuning.

Ok we are part way there, but I will need you to answer a few question to get us over the finish line. Are you playing a 4 or 5 string? What tuning are you using? What type of pedals are you using? What type of gig, venue, and stage volume do you need out of the 210 or 115? The first two questions helps us understand if you are likely to excite the system below the cab tuning... this is important to know since cone displacement increases below port tuning. Knowing the type and use of pedals helps to gauge the crest factor of signal being fed to the amp block. The last set of questions helps to determine what kind of level you are needing to achieve. So for example, if the peak to average signal ratio (crest factor) is low then it could cause thermal problems in those cabs if the rig is driven to really high output levels....potentially. But, most average use cases would be fine running a V7 with either a VB-210 or VB-115.

As you can see, providing a bullet proof cheat sheet for the pairings would be practically impossible, but I do agree that "listed" recommendations would be useful. What I see as "suggested corresponding heads" would be looking at the pairings in the sound samples on the web site and pairings used in the videos that Ampeg have put together.

 

[_Some Dude]

I agree, the marketing material could be stand to be cleaned up and made to be more clear... I can't really help with that because I don't work there anymore, but lets see if I can help.
Yes the assumption of the amplifier RMS power @8 ohms being half of the 4ohm RMS power rating is correct. This will mean that the amplifier peak power ratings @8 ohms will be 1200w/700w/300w. The cabinet peak power handling is 6dB or 4 times the RMS rating so it looks like the 210 and 115 have enough headroom to handle the peak output capability of the V7... assuming that most of the energy is at or above port tuning.

Ok we are part way there, but I will need you to answer a few question to get us over the finish line. Are you playing a 4 or 5 string? What tuning are you using? What type of pedals are you using? What type of gig, venue, and stage volume do you need out of the 210 or 115? The first two questions helps us understand if you are likely to excite the system below the cab tuning... this is important to know since cone displacement increases below port tuning. Knowing the type and use of pedals helps to gauge the crest factor of signal being fed to the amp block. The last set of questions helps to determine what kind of level you are needing to achieve. So for example, if the peak to average signal ratio (crest factor) is low then it could cause thermal problems in those cabs if the rig is driven to really high output levels....potentially. But, most average use cases would be fine running a V7 with either a VB-210 or VB-115.

As you can see, providing a bullet proof cheat sheet for the pairings would be practically impossible, but I do agree that "listed" recommendations would be useful. What I see as "suggested corresponding heads" would be looking at the pairings in the sound samples on the web site and pairings used in the videos that Ampeg have put together.

4 and 5 string, half step down (so lowest note is A#). EMGs + preamp, moderate boost to the lows/highs.
Wah and distortion. I don't boost the lows on the dirt, and it's only on for two songs.
For stage volume, in the past I have pushed other 800w amps to the limit (small venue, vox only PA), although I'm hopefully not going to be doing that kind of gig anymore.
If it helps, I'm going for a rock bass tone (Alice in Chains-ish), and on an SVT-CL my B/M/T is generally 5/5/6, with the ultra high on. So, I'm not looking for a boomy/dub/reggae kind of low end.

 

[Lowbrow]

? I have the impression that Anthony’s last post was describing things that any Venture cab buyer ought to consider rather than an offer of personal customer support.

 

[_Some Dude]

? I have the impression that Anthony’s last post was describing things that any Venture cab buyer ought to consider rather than an offer of personal customer support.

Possibly.

Ok we are part way there, but I will need you to answer a few question to get us over the finish line.

I'm not really looking for personal customer support, but I read this line and decided to play the game to see where it went. But, I can see it the other way where he may just be trying to make the argument that there's too many variables to give a concrete answer for every scenario.

Ultimately, I know I'm asking if it's safe to put 700w through a 210/115, which are rated for 300w/250w, which means anything over 500w is pushing it, which leads me back to the idea that the amps/cabs are completely mismatched for each other, which is the main point I'm making.

If they'd made a 500w amp, it would be compatible with every cab they produced. If they'd designed the cabs to handle 350w+, they'd all be compatible with the V7.

I'd thought that maybe this was just a marketing thing... maybe marketing inflated the amp's specs, or maybe the cabs were under rated. Now, I'm thinking the numbers are accurate.

 

[agedhorse]

I think this is a good real world example of why describing specifications in a complicated way, especially by marketing folks, leads to more confusion and doubt than being straight forward with consistent measurement units.

This is a complicated subject that becomes even more opaque once it enters the marketing and consumer channels.

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

I propose a marketing solution to end the confusion amp and speaker cabinet buyers may have when it comes to combining various pieces that works like the Garanimals children's clothing line.

Here is a description of how Garanimals works from Wikipedia.

The original clothing had small embroidered animals on the breast or bottom of tops, and on the waistband of bottoms (or sometimes on one leg above the hem for shorts.)

The intent was to allow children to pick out their own outfits by matching the same animal to a top and a bottom (the line was coordinated so that matching sets would be complementary but provide a choice of combinations.)

For example, if your amplifier has a bear, a giraffe, and a cat logo on the back, and your speaker has a dog, a zebra, and an elephant logo on it, you can easily tell that you should not use them together.

 

[Anthony Fregoso]

Possibly.



I'm not really looking for personal customer support, but I read this line and decided to play the game to see where it went. But, I can see it the other way where he may just be trying to make the argument that there's too many variables to give a concrete answer for every scenario.

Ultimately, I know I'm asking if it's safe to put 700w through a 210/115, which are rated for 300w/250w, which means anything over 500w is pushing it, which leads me back to the idea that the amps/cabs are completely mismatched for each other, which is the main point I'm making.

If they'd made a 500w amp, it would be compatible with every cab they produced. If they'd designed the cabs to handle 350w+, they'd all be compatible with the V7.

I'd thought that maybe this was just a marketing thing... maybe marketing inflated the amp's specs, or maybe the cabs were under rated. Now, I'm thinking the numbers are accurate.

Lowbrow & _Some Dude, you are both right. I'm working through _Some Dude's questions and use case in a public setting to hopefully help him and offer insight to the community on things to consider when putting together a rig.

Looking at the pedal types and genre I'm going to swag the worst case signal crest factor at 6dB... this assumes that the peak indicator is occasionally flickering not solid red. The V7 into 8 ohms can deliver 700W peak and with a signal crest factor of 6dB the RMS power level delivered will be 175W. Both cabs would be able to handle that power level long term with no issue....But there was another important piece of information provided that would have me exclude one of the cabs. The fact that one of your basses is tuned down to A# (29.14Hz) and considering your signal chain/crest factor, I would not advise you to get the VB-210. That note is far enough below the port tuning and could potentially cause mechanical damage to the woofers if driven at high levels for a long enough period of time. This is not a problem with this particular cab, it is a function of how ported cabs work... ALL ported cabs become undamped below port tuning. If the use case for a V7+VB210 required a lower level of stage volume than your case and the signal had a higher crest factor it would probably be just fine. The V7+VB-115 should handle your use case....again assuming the peak indicator is flickering and not solid red.

 

[_Some Dude]

Lowbrow & _Some Dude, you are both right. I'm working through _Some Dude's questions and use case in a public setting to hopefully help him and offer insight to the community on things to consider when putting together a rig.

Looking at the pedal types and genre I'm going to swag the worst case signal crest factor at 6dB... this assumes that the peak indicator is occasionally flickering not solid red. The V7 into 8 ohms can deliver 700W peak and with a signal crest factor of 6dB the RMS power level delivered will be 175W. Both cabs would be able to handle that power level long term with no issue....But there was another important piece of information provided that would have me exclude one of the cabs. The fact that one of your basses is tuned down to A# (29.14Hz) and considering your signal chain/crest factor, I would not advise you to get the VB-210. That note is far enough below the port tuning and could potentially cause mechanical damage to the woofers if driven at high levels for a long enough period of time. This is not a problem with this particular cab, it is a function of how ported cabs work... ALL ported cabs become undamped below port tuning. If the use case for a V7+VB210 required a lower level of stage volume than your case and the signal had a higher crest factor it would probably be just fine. The V7+VB-115 should handle your use case....again assuming the peak indicator is flickering and not solid red.

Once again, I appreciate your response.

I figure it's better I get answers like this up front than blow things up and post complaints about it afterwards.

 

[agedhorse]

I propose a marketing solution to end the confusion amp and speaker cabinet buyers may have when it comes to combining various pieces that works like the Garanimals children's clothing line.

Here is a description of how Garanimals works from Wikipedia.

The original clothing had small embroidered animals on the breast or bottom of tops, and on the waistband of bottoms (or sometimes on one leg above the hem for shorts.)

The intent was to allow children to pick out their own outfits by matching the same animal to a top and a bottom (the line was coordinated so that matching sets would be complementary but provide a choice of combinations.)

For example, if your amplifier has a bear, a giraffe, and a cat logo on the back, and your speaker has a dog, a zebra, and an elephant logo on it, you can easily tell that you should not use them together.

I love it!

We could take it a step farther with predictor versus prey, then add endangered “vintage” species, etc…

 

[ihixulu]

...But there was another important piece of information provided that would have me exclude one of the cabs. The fact that one of your basses is tuned down to A# (29.14Hz) and considering your signal chain/crest factor, I would not advise you to get the VB-210. That note is far enough below the port tuning and could potentially cause mechanical damage to the woofers if driven at high levels for a long enough period of time. This is not a problem with this particular cab, it is a function of how ported cabs work... ALL ported cabs become undamped below port tuning.....

HPF to the rescue