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New bass player using my ideas.
- Thread starter Mytt88
- Start date
Paul McCartney openly admits to ripping the bass line for I Saw her Standing There from a Chick Berry song. As long as the bass line isn’t the main riff, doesn’t seem like anyone cares.
I have seen bands in my scene go through new bass players, new guy always does it different. They may not copy the exact fills or style, or just add their own. If your flavor was that easy to replicate I wouldnt stress about it.
I do church gigs - I rehearse songs that get cancelled before I play them on a pretty regular basis, and....I completely disagree with your assessment of the situation. Any time you learn a new tune, it builds a different structure in your brain - it adds a bit of flexibility. That's never a bad thing - flexibility (aka mental plasticity) is key to learning new stuff.
That said, to the original topic, I don't think there is a single case in the history of recorded music where a bass player got a single cent in compensation from a lawsuit when someone ripped off a bass line. The copyright laws focus on melodies, and maybe chord structure; even that is tenuous. They don't give a rip about instrumental parts. It may not be fair, but it is how our world is structured. You can, if you want to, throw yourself a pity party, but if I were you, I'd make that brief, and get on with making music in another situation. Yep, this is "tough love", but it's also just plain old reality.
Define co-writing? Lyrics, melody and chord structure or just the bass line (not to diminish the impact of a well written bass line).
if it's just the bass line, take it as a compliment that they would like something similar to be played.
Song credits can be a real pita and generally not worth the aggravation unless something really wonderful happens.
if it's just the bass line, take it as a compliment that they would like something similar to be played.
Song credits can be a real pita and generally not worth the aggravation unless something really wonderful happens.
Yes, It sucks! I helped develop a handful of songs a guitarist friend of mine wrote for a demo he wanted to shop around.What bugged me was he rerecorded all of my bass line melodies, which ImO were distinctive & propelled them (gave a hook to his songs). What really bugged me is I didn't receive any credit for it. he put together a new band & played the songs. I guess not being included or given any credit hurt a bit, but I chalked it up to his ego (he didn't want to share any writing credits since It was his "pet Project"). he was a fairly well known local Player, and was shopping that Demo around. It was easier to let it go, when I realized it wasn't gonna go anywhere (not make any money). I knew it was going to be an uphill battle with him because of prior dealings with him. I didn't think it was worth the drama. It was just a crappy situation. It was just the principle of it all.
a couple of years later, he got his comeuppence. when a popular local singer,"stole" some of his songs off his 2nd Demo (nothing I worked on). He came to me crying for advice, i told him yeah, "that sucks!" He ended up in a legal battle with the singer & black balled himself out of the local talent pool. So in hind sight, I 've decided to clear the air, come to an understanding before going any further when developing or creating anything I want credit for doing, so I know where I stand & who I'm dealing with, so I won't feel cheated if things get more serious!
Simple communication is key. luckily, nothing ever came out of those stolen songs (too much bad Karma). I'm happy I wasn't involved. I guess it wasn't an uncommon practice at that time. I 've heard of many similar stories destroying a lot of relationships.
- Apr 11, 2019
- 340
- 381
- Disclosures
- Lincoln Learning Solutions - Lincoln Park Performing Arts Center
Well... If you're convinced they're gonna blow up and be the biggest thing ever, you can bother them about it. Or you can just get over it. And yourself. The chances that this band is heading anywhere (aside from eventual breakup, which is the default..), are quite slim, regardless of how good they are.
But what if...?
IMO the essential, prior question is the true musical nature of the bass lines in question. Probably the OP is not the most unbiased person to answer that. What would an expert pop/contemporary musicologist say about it? Are the bass lines an integral part of the melodic structure of the songs, such that they must be regarded as constituting an indivisible part of the composition itself? Or are they, however imaginative and creative, adornments or arrangements that accompany but are not essential to the songs?
We are now on the monochrome scale, somewhere between black and white.
What op went through and what you’re talking about are two very different things, IMO. Of course learning new tunes is a good thing. But he’s talking about losing intellectual property. He wasn’t learning the tunes - In his mind, at least, he was creating them.
Intellectual property has rules. I can talk about all the things I’ve invented in my mind, but the US Patent office only gives out patents on the things that fit their rules. Likewise, while I create bass lines on a daily basis, I understand I don’t have a legal leg to stand on if someone else plays the same notes. If you want to offer emotional support, go ahead, but at some point, an understanding of reality is very (I would argue more) valuable.
Not quite true in all circumstances. It depends on how someone plays the same notes. If they conceive of and play exactly the same or very similar notes but completely independently of ever having seen or heard yours. then no foul. If, however, they copy your notes then that begs the question of whether your notes were sufficiently unique and original as to have given rise to a copyright therein. If so, then an infringement has occurred - if by playing live then an infringement of the exclusive right of public performance held by the copyright owner - if by recording then an infringement of the exclusive right or reproduction in tangible/legible form.
Which is all very nice in esoteric legal terms but probably worthless in practical terms. As is said "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"
- Apr 11, 2019
- 340
- 381
- Disclosures
- Lincoln Learning Solutions - Lincoln Park Performing Arts Center
But what if...?
IMO the essential, prior question is the true musical nature of the bass lines in question. Probably the OP is not the most unbiased person to answer that. What would an expert pop/contemporary musicologist say about it? Are the bass lines an integral part of the melodic structure of the songs, such that they must be regarded as constituting an indivisible part of the composition itself? Or are they, however imaginative and creative, adornments or arrangements that accompany but are not essential to the songs?
We are now on the monochrome scale, somewhere between black and white.
Well... I had to give up a 1/4 of my songwriter credit on an album (back in 1990) because the guitarist changed the rhythm of the chord sequence. It was either give up the credit or not have the song on the album. The band leaders loved that rearrangement, so I gave up the credit. Still... Even though the band was/is a known entity and have had some success, at this point in their career that .25 was worth under 5k, so it wasn't a big deal.
As to your question, if the bass line in question is the hook, then yes, it deserves credit and if the band makes it or signs a deal they should share that credit with the bassist who created it. But, I doubt that's gonna happen in this scenario....
The band leaders exercised what is known as "jurisdiction in terrorem" - muscle in place of legal standing.
I am well aware that melody and lyrics are what makes a song in terms of copyright. My larger point in my original post from which you quoted was that we should have written agreements in place so there will be no misunderstandings about who actually wrote and owns the song. So I’m not just giving emotional support.
I was just thinking about a similar situation. I could post two versions of a song that I wrote, one of which was on a demo tape that I gave to the keyboard player in one band that led to my singing with them. The other version was on one of our CDs. They added a bridge that I hadn't included when I wrote the song, since everything else we were writing was being given group credit for all our contributions. What was I going to do? Say no? We put the song on the record. It's not like it became a huge hit or anything.
Here are those two songs, if anyone cares: My demo version: http://www.louiethelovemuffin.com/music/mp3s/Desire 2 mix.mp3
---AND---
The band version (the added bridge comes in around 23:00):
Nice! Good singing, good playing!
Guitarist has an Allan Holdsworth thang goin' on there
As far as I am concerned the added bridge is just filler. The original song has all the inspiration and creative elements - melody, lyrics and an unusual chord bed underneath it all.
If it was me and they said “we think the song needs something else” , I’d say okay, I’ll write a middle section but it’s my song. I’m a bit of a nut when it comes to original material. Just about anyone can write a song but writing a good song is something special.
Yeah, I agree with you, and I was not happy about how this went down. However, this was by far a minor thing compared to some of the other stuff that went on with that band, so in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't a hill to die on. I did want to die on it, but was outvoted by the other band members who thought I was being unreasonable since we were splitting credit on everything else we were writing together. And I didn't want to be "that person" who just takes their ball and goes home, and I didn't want to make an already painful band dynamic even worse, so I just said OK.
