New Car Shopping

[hondo4life]

Electronic stability control and TPMS (tire pressure monitoring system) exist now primarily due to two things.

1. The Suzuki Samurai. Nothing much to say except it was very "tippy".
2. Defective and underinflated Firestone tires on Gen 1 Ford Explorers.

ESC has saved my bacon at least once. I was driving through an intersection and another car blew through a stop sign, almost t-boning me. I had to make a VERY abrupt evasive maneuver and I could feel the car taking over some of the braking etc. to prevent a rollover.

To the OP: Carefully weigh the value of systems like Adaptive Cruise Control, Frontal Collision Avoidance, etc. I'm 100% convinced of their worth and wouldn't buy any new car without that stuff. But it's not free.

EDIT: Also, do you have any emotional attachment to driving and your vehicle? If not, most anything will probably serve you well. But if the driving experience is important to you, well, all I can say is at least test drive a Sportwagen or Alltrack.

As someone who has owned two Suzuki Samurais, I have to disagree. At no time did the roof of either Samurai ever end up completely supporting the weight of the vehicle. The tires may have left the ground at certain times, but they always came back!

 

[Robroy]

Not at all. A sweeping generalization ('SUVs are dangerous'), followed by a dubious 'fact' ('They flip over a LOT') including all caps, followed by an attempt to shut down logic in advance ('I know, it's exactly the opposite of what you'd think') is a pretty decent example of slightly hysterically phrased.

In your subsequent posts you:

a) Say that there are certain types of accidents you'd rather be in in an SUV than a car, thus undermining your blanket 'SUVs are dangerous' statement;

b) Rely on personal experience as your 'proof;'

c) State that you've driven what's a pretty amazing number of miles without an significant accident, then retract that and cut it in half, blaming it on 'meant to say;'

d) Admit that things have changed since you were well-informed but want to hide behind 'it's complicated.' Yes, of course it's complicated! Who knew that car safety could be so complicated? But sure, let's all talk out of our elbows about it.

So, to your accusation of projection... nah.

I guess it depends on your definition of "a lot". I stand by my statement:

suv flips over - YouTube

 

[Robroy]

Not at all. A sweeping generalization ('SUVs are dangerous'), followed by a dubious 'fact' ('They flip over a LOT') including all caps, followed by an attempt to shut down logic in advance ('I know, it's exactly the opposite of what you'd think') is a pretty decent example of slightly hysterically phrased.

In your subsequent posts you:

a) Say that there are certain types of accidents you'd rather be in in an SUV than a car, thus undermining your blanket 'SUVs are dangerous' statement;

b) Rely on personal experience as your 'proof;'

c) State that you've driven what's a pretty amazing number of miles without an significant accident, then retract that and cut it in half, blaming it on 'meant to say;'

d) Admit that things have changed since you were well-informed but want to hide behind 'it's complicated.' Yes, of course it's complicated! Who knew that car safety could be so complicated? But sure, let's all talk out of our elbows about it.

So, to your accusation of projection... nah.

My wife has a phrase for guys that drive big SUV's something about compensating for something. That may be why most of the SUV's I see are driven by women. And by "most", I mean practically all.
There's your "hysterically phrased" right there!

To be fair, though, if a guy drives a big vehicle it is usually a 4x4 pickup.

 

[blastoff99]

Thanks for the reply, @blastoff99. Maybe I did walk away from a great deal. I am the first to admit I'm wrong (which is a lot) and wonder if I'll get a better deal from the next closest Hyundai dealer 20 miles away.

The thing that bothered me about the deal I walked away from is they seemed like they weren't happy about the TrueCar price I came in with. While looking to see what my insurance would be for the Sonata, I saw my bank offered the TrueCar service. Their website allows me to find the exact trim I'm looking for and based on my ZIP Code find me the best price a dealer is going to offer. You print out a page with the bottom-line price, add taxes and fees and there's your price.

Unfortunately the dealer wasn't coming up with the "x" price that TrueCar was telling me to pay. They were coming up with x+$1000 and were going around in circles trying to explain to me why it is more than what TrueCar was telling me, but I didn't see it. I understand there are buyers fees associated, but it just seemed weird they wouldn't budge that $1000 and I think could have easily said 'Okay, we'll give you $1000 more for your trade." I hate going back and forth and arguing. When I bought my Honda I came in with the price I wanted to pay ($500 over their invoice), the price for my trade and they tried to up sell me a couple things, I politely declined and I bought the car. It was very easy.

I'm not very familiar with TrueCar pricing, and I think maybe I'm not understanding the story - possibly conflating two deals into one. But I thought you said the deal you walked away from was $10G under MSRP. And TrueCar was less than that? Or am I all messed up?

Yeah, the fees are a pain. Some states allow them to charge up to $X for a doc fee, so they do. Or a 'license administration' fee. So they do. And on and on. That stuff sometimes is negotiable. And it sounds like they may be using them to obscure things a bit.

The most important thing is to make sure you're buying the right car. If you don't like the car, there isn't a number that will make you feel good about the deal, IME as both a buyer and a seller.

Good luck!

 

[blastoff99]

My wife has a phrase for guys that drive big SUV's something about compensating for something. That may be why most of the SUV's I see are driven by women. And by "most", I mean practically all.
There's your "hysterically phrased" right there!

Ha, good point. That holds reasonably well around here, with maybe not practically all but certainly most of the SUVs being driven by women.

That said, the guys don't get a free pass. I've never seen so many lifted F-350 double cab long box 4WD diesel chipped piped mud tires pickups in my life. If the 'compensating' theory is true, these dudes must be really having to work at it.

My car is small and yellow. Not sure what that says about me except that I was willing to save $2500ish by buying the yellow one instead of the grey one.

 

[Robroy]

Ha, good point. That holds reasonably well around here, with maybe not practically all but certainly most of the SUVs being driven by women.

That said, the guys don't get a free pass. I've never seen so many lifted F-350 double cab long box 4WD diesel chipped piped mud tires pickups in my life. If the 'compensating' theory is true, these dudes must be really having to work at it.

My car is small and yellow. Not sure what that says about me except that I was willing to save $2500ish by buying the yellow one instead of the grey one.

This is funny. I have a 2013 FR-S that i bought new in white. I have some minor body damage and am considering, when I take it to the body shop for the work,having them paint it either yellow or lime green. It's got over 125k on it now so I figure resale value doesn't matter much (especially since I rarely sell my cars until they are ready for the junkyard).

But for me it's throwback to my old yellow Opel GT from the early 70's. Small cars should be brightly colored.

I also prefer solid colors to metalic.

 

[fingerguy]

My wife has a phrase for guys that drive big SUV's something about compensating for something. That may be why most of the SUV's I see are driven by women. And by "most", I mean practically all.
There's your "hysterically phrased" right there!

To be fair, though, if a guy drives a big vehicle it is usually a 4x4 pickup.

Right, I can see that for people driving expensive sports cars that can pay off my mortgage, but a SUV? Please. I love mine for I can haul stuff, and go on any road even if it's off-roading. Plus I need something to haul our bikes.

 

[blastoff99]

Right, I can see that for people driving expensive sports cars that can pay off my mortgage, but a SUV? Please. I love mine for I can haul stuff, and go on any road even if it's off-roading. Plus I need something to haul our bikes.

SUVs can be very practical. I've owned one myself. But the big ones with one occupant, no trailer hitch, and not a speck of dirt.... nah.

 

[Alkali Ike]

SUVs and CUVs (the latter being "crossovers") are not the same thing. The CR-V, RAV4, Murano, Outback, etc. are CUVs. And yes they're popular with families. The Outback might seem to tilt toward being an SUV but really it's not. Anything with full-time AWD is probably a CUV.

A 4WD Chevy Tahoe is an example of an SUV.

The Golf Alltrack is arguably just an AWD wagon. Neither CUV nor SUV.

 

[Robroy]

Right, I can see that for people driving expensive sports cars that can pay off my mortgage, but a SUV? Please. I love mine for I can haul stuff, and go on any road even if it's off-roading. Plus I need something to haul our bikes.

Yeah. It was just a joke. Kinda like the same line about guys that drive 'Vettes.

for some people, they are quite useful. Fact is, i've thought about one of those new Ford Exploders for my wife for the farm but, in all seriousness, I want her in something more stable on the road.

 

[Robroy]

SUVs and CUVs (the latter being "crossovers") are not the same thing. The CR-V, RAV4, Murano, Outback, etc. are CUVs. And yes they're popular with families. The Outback might seem to tilt toward being an SUV but really it's not. Anything with full-time AWD is probably a CUV.

A Chevy Tahoe is an example of an SUV.

The Golf Alltrack is arguably just an AWD wagon. Neither CUV nor SUV.

What I'd really like is a Dodge Magna. Sadly, they don't make them any more.

 

[Alkali Ike]

Fact is, i've thought about one of those new Ford Exploders for my wife for the farm but, in all seriousness, I want her in something more stable on the road.

I'm still having trouble grasping why you believe the current generation of Explorer, or anything similar to it, is "unstable". I don't even know what that means. Is a Crown Vic unstable as a result of its size? Is an Outback unstable? How about Mini Cooper or Fiat 500 with AWD?

To me "unstable" means difficult for an average driver to control and/or it's inherently dangerous to drive.

 

[Alkali Ike]

Now *this* is an unstable vehicle. Youtube is full of videos of Dodge Rams with "death wobble". Some of the trucks have been modified with lift kits or whatever. But this one seems to be stock.



If that happened to me, after changing my drawers I'd have the vehicle towed to a dealer and hire an attorney.

 

[Gaolee]

A few things - safety isn't just about size. It's also about engineering. That's how race drivers walk away from insane crashes these days and how they didn't used to walk away from much of anything. Same with car drivers who screw up these days. I like smaller cars because to me, low mass is it's own reward. But, I have a van for purely practical purposes. I expect that a Smart car would be at least as safe as my lumbering van for a number of reasons that we don't have to get into.

So, to the OP's predicament, or non-predicament. If a RAV-4 is on the list, then what about a Prius V? It may be out of the price range as a new car, but maybe not as a used car. A Prius is a dull car, but so is just about any SUV in comparison to a lighter, nimbler car. Just about any Prius made will go some insane number of miles before it blinks. There's a reason just about all the taxi and Uber drivers around here use them. They all seem to get 300K or 400K out of them as a minimum without anything except routine maintenance. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the next highest mileage car ever was a Toyota Prius. Nobody else seems to have mastered battery technology quite as well as Toyota yet. Maybe Tesla, but that's an entirely different cost level.

 

[hondo4life]

Now *this* is an unstable vehicle. Youtube is full of videos of Dodge Rams with "death wobble". Some of the trucks have been modified with lift kits or whatever. But this one seems to be stock.



If that happened to me, after changing my drawers I'd have the vehicle towed to a dealer and hire an attorney.

Holy cow, this happened to me in a work truck a couple of years ago. It was a new Ram quad cab with a heavy utility body, and it started swerving back and forth all by itself on the highway for no reason. I am pretty sure the stability control went haywire and started braking random wheels. It only happened that one time, though.

 

[blastoff99]

for some people, they are quite useful. Fact is, i've thought about one of those new Ford Exploders for my wife for the farm but, in all seriousness, I want her in something more stable on the road.

If you are hearkening all the way back to the Firestone tire debacle, that is old news indeed - and Car & Driver did quite the bit of research on this where they managed to recreate blowouts at speed and guess what, no Explorers rolled over. In fact, the car was quite controllable in all conditions... including braking to a safe and non-dramatic stop with no hands on the steering wheel.

Film at 11... oh wait, that was a couple decades ago.

 

[Alkali Ike]

If you are hearkening all the way back to the Firestone tire debacle, that is old news indeed - and Car & Driver did quite the bit of research on this where they managed to recreate blowouts at speed and guess what, no Explorers rolled over. In fact, the car was quite controllable in all conditions... including braking to a safe and non-dramatic stop with no hands on the steering wheel.

Film at 11... oh wait, that was a couple decades ago.

Like many such things (unintended acceleration for example), there's usually a relatively simple explanation. Eventually, after all the headlines. The Explorer issue was largely due to the Firestone tires being defective, coupled with the tires being very underinflated. Under certain conditions, anything is possible. Companies learn from these things, modify designs, get their quality control under control, and products improve. Hence TPMS, stability control, etc.

 

[hondo4life]

A few things - safety isn't just about size. It's also about engineering. That's how race drivers walk away from insane crashes these days and how they didn't used to walk away from much of anything. Same with car drivers who screw up these days. I like smaller cars because to me, low mass is it's own reward. But, I have a van for purely practical purposes. I expect that a Smart car would be at least as safe as my lumbering van for a number of reasons that we don't have to get into.

So, to the OP's predicament, or non-predicament. If a RAV-4 is on the list, then what about a Prius V? It may be out of the price range as a new car, but maybe not as a used car. A Prius is a dull car, but so is just about any SUV in comparison to a lighter, nimbler car. Just about any Prius made will go some insane number of miles before it blinks. There's a reason just about all the taxi and Uber drivers around here use them. They all seem to get 300K or 400K out of them as a minimum without anything except routine maintenance. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the next highest mileage car ever was a Toyota Prius. Nobody else seems to have mastered battery technology quite as well as Toyota yet. Maybe Tesla, but that's an entirely different cost level.

Oh no. I drove a Prius today because I had to replace the awful, malfunctioning plastic coolant valve. I became very agitated and started throwing tools. Working on it sucks enough, but driving it is worse. I could not park the thing and jump out of it fast enough. I hate it, so much. It's like a death trap for people who expect to have control of their machine. The brake pedal is literally an on/off switch, the throttle pedal more of a suggestion box, and the steering linkage must be straight off that old arcade game where three players could race stadium trucks together. Sorry Prius owners, I just can't. And I drive a Nissan Versa (sometimes, when it isn't in the shop).

 

[blastoff99]

Like many such things (unintended acceleration for example), there's usually a relatively simple explanation. Eventually, after all the headlines. The Explorer issue was largely due to the Firestone tires being defective, coupled with the tires being very underinflated. Under certain conditions, anything is possible. Companies learn from these things, modify designs, get their quality control under control, and products improve. Hence TPMS, stability control, etc.

Like many such things (unintended acceleration for example), there's usually a relatively simple explanation. Eventually, after all the headlines. The Explorer issue was largely due to the Firestone tires being defective, coupled with the tires being very underinflated. Under certain conditions, anything is possible. Companies learn from these things, modify designs, get their quality control under control, and products improve. Hence TPMS, stability control, etc.

And drivers hearing a sudden loud noise, panicking, and sawing at the steering wheel.

 

[Stewie26]

But for me it's throwback to my old yellow Opel GT from the early 70's. Small cars should be brightly colored.

I also prefer solid colors to metalic.

As you might already know, Opel GT's are one of my favorite vintage sports cars. I think they sold more yellow ones compared to any other color. Anyway...carry on.