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New convert to IEM/ampless for live gigs - help!!!

Exploiter007

Supporting Member
Jan 13, 2017
94
191
Connecticut
Hi everyone. So I’m going down a rabbit hole with this switch to using IEMs and no amp for rehearsals and live gigs. I’m a total noob when it comes to this stuff, have done searches, etc, but still scratching my head over a few things. Thanking you in advance for your kind input.

My current set up is behs<compressor<Aguilar AG preamp/di<board. I will run a tuner or Shure wireless before the compressor depending on the venue.

For behs, I’m currently playing Spector NS2’s with 9 volt preamps.

The sound is ok; my IEM setup is Sennheiser XSW transmitter/receiver Mackie MP-460 ear buds.

My question - would my set up benefit from a cab sim rather than just a pre amp? Given the active electronics in my behses, is there a better option than the AG? I’ve looked into Origin Effects, DSMHumboldt, Walrus, Broughton, etc. Yes, I have tried the Sansamp, even recorded with it and…I don’t like it. I would be looking for something transparent that I can tweak a bit if need be. I’m not much of a twiddler (for example: my Empress bass compressor is wonderful, but my Keely bassist is idiot proof),so I tend to like simpler formats without user interface screens. Oh, about the compressor - do I even need one at this point? I’m playing in a classic rock cover band and we gig out once or twice a week.

Side note: not lugging an amplifier and hearing everything clearly has been a blessing.
 
I went through same conversion 3-4 years ago. I came to some conclusions:
1. Personal IEM mix is a must, idealy with you having control at all time. At first I would fine tune mix between every song, later once per gig. After some time, I got it perfect and don't touch it almost never. This kind of fine tuning is not possible if I would share mix with other players, or didn't have my own controls.
2. Good fit of IEM earphones is very important, more important than general IEM quality. I would take mediocre IEMs that fit my ears perfect every day, rather than best IEM on market with lousy fit. Noise bleed from outside wrecks my mix, and I can't play that game all the time.
3. Bass processing on player side should be minimal. Most important things can/should be set on mixer side (gain/volume, HPF/LPF, room EQ, compression), and by objective listener (sound guy) in the context of band as whole. You need bass that sounds good and fits your style and music played, a little bit brighter than you want. IME cab sims are not a must for a bass guitar, but I don't use OD/dist, only synths. If you are happy how your bass sounds ATM, don't waste your time and money.
 
Thanks, RattleSnack! I’ve got the mixer on my iPhone. I get what you mean about ear buds fit - I’ve debated getting a custom made pair. When you say compression should be set on the mixer side, does that negate the need for me to add a compressor before the preamp/di?
NP, glad to help!
You will find use of compressor highly debatable on this forum. My opinion and experience has been that it can serve different uses: it can fix some kind of bass guitar or technique issue (uneven strings response level, of very loud pops when slapping), fix level issues between diferent pedals/effects, add some flavor to the sound. IMO all of those most issues often have better different solutions, and using compressor for those is just a crutch.
One proper reason to use compressor is to control dynamics (silent, louder and loudest sounds) coming from your playing. The bigger the PA is, more important is this control. In these days, sound guy at mixer will set compression on your channel even for small live events. Good sound guy will remember that live show is not a studio session, and compression should be used only as much as neccesary, because one huge advantage live show has over studio recording is the dynamic range. Good live musicians know how to use it for dramatic effect and taking away that dynamics IMO takes away from performance. If I don't have that range, and me and my band can't use it, we can't hope to keep audience attention and we fall in the trap of just having one loud bland performance.
One more reason for leaving the setting of compression to objective listener (to set it for each channel and mix as whole) is that it's really hard to set compression just right by only listening yourself. Let's say your guitar player has no compression, has full dynamic range, and is willing to use it. You OTOH set heavy compression, because that's how the song you are playing was produced so that sounds best to you. On more silent parts of the song, guitar will dissapear from mix. Then on crescendo, he will overpower you. That's why sound guy will set each channel separately, then listen to mix as whole while band is playing couple of songs during sound check. Also he will stay at mixer and listen and adjust all the time during performance.
Of course, not all bands have mixers, PA, sound guy (eventhough, that is getting very common even with smaller cover band these days). You might use your own sound source (loud amp and cab) and want a smoother studio produced-like sound, so you might want to set your own compression. But in your and mine case, going straight to mixer and having IEM, I say that's probably best left for someone else to setup. Not to mention that lots of musician don't have idea how compression, parameters, or specific equipment they use work (no offence to anyone).
So in short, unless you are sure you know what you are doing, leave it to sound guy.
Just to add, this is my personal opinion and experience, it's certainly not only way to go forward, as I am sure someone else from this forum will inform you.
 
If you are going direct to the board (no amp behind you) a compressor isn't really that necessary, as the sound man will likely add some compression to your channel, if it is needed. Also, if you have a little dirt going in your signal chain it will naturally compress your sound.

IMHO cab sims are really only needed if your sound has a lot of overdrive/distortion. If you are playing mostly clean, you are fine without one.
 
I’ve posted at length about this before, but all of the bands I work with have their own mixer on stage to run IEM’s with a split going to the house to run FOH. That means 2 things.. 1) the band has full control of their mixer and thus, their IEM mix connecting via tablet and Wi-Fi and 2) as long as you have a good tone going to the split and FOH is happy.. you can do whatever you want tone wise to your IEM mix.
I run a Cali 76 comp into my Khan tube DI. FOH has complimented me on the tone, and I can EQmy IEM (for me and the rest of the band) as I prefer.
I run wireless IEM from the stage mixer, into CIEM’s and control.my mix via tablet.
This isn’t an option for all bands. YMMV.
 
Hi everyone. So I’m going down a rabbit hole with this switch to using IEMs and no amp for rehearsals and live gigs. I’m a total noob when it comes to this stuff, have done searches, etc, but still scratching my head over a few things. Thanking you in advance for your kind input.

My current set up is behs<compressor<Aguilar AG preamp/di<board. I will run a tuner or Shure wireless before the compressor depending on the venue.

For behs, I’m currently playing Spector NS2’s with 9 volt preamps.

The sound is ok; my IEM setup is Sennheiser XSW transmitter/receiver Mackie MP-460 ear buds.

My question - would my set up benefit from a cab sim rather than just a pre amp? Given the active electronics in my behses, is there a better option than the AG? I’ve looked into Origin Effects, DSMHumboldt, Walrus, Broughton, etc. Yes, I have tried the Sansamp, even recorded with it and…I don’t like it. I would be looking for something transparent that I can tweak a bit if need be. I’m not much of a twiddler (for example: my Empress bass compressor is wonderful, but my Keely bassist is idiot proof),so I tend to like simpler formats without user interface screens. Oh, about the compressor - do I even need one at this point? I’m playing in a classic rock cover band and we gig out once or twice a week.

Side note: not lugging an amplifier and hearing everything clearly has been a blessing.
Most important things are good quality, well-fitting earphones...worth the investment. Next, possibly move up to this, which is basically what I use:


Lastly, as long as you have a good bass with minimal need for processing, and then use a sufficient DI, and a pedal/preamp if you want, you're good to go. Since 2015, I've used a Zoom MS60B going into a reliable and affordable Whirlwind DI. Yes, I use cab sim patches, only because they enhances midrange grind or fullness, depending on the bass and room. You don't need much for a good sound, because what I hear in my ears with my bass is what the crowd hears.
 
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Just be sure you agree with your sound person regarding how much bass should be in the FoH mix. I went ampless for a few gigs and then people were telling me they couldn’t hear the bass at all. Plus our PA has only 10” or 12” speakers and no subs, so now I always bring an amp with a 15” speaker cabinet. I only use IEMs when the room is particularly difficult acoustically and it would be inappropriate to turn up my amp more just so I can hear myself.
 
Hi everyone. So I’m going down a rabbit hole with this switch to using IEMs and no amp for rehearsals and live gigs. I’m a total noob when it comes to this stuff, have done searches, etc, but still scratching my head over a few things. Thanking you in advance for your kind input.

My current set up is behs<compressor<Aguilar AG preamp/di<board. I will run a tuner or Shure wireless before the compressor depending on the venue.

For behs, I’m currently playing Spector NS2’s with 9 volt preamps.

The sound is ok; my IEM setup is Sennheiser XSW transmitter/receiver Mackie MP-460 ear buds.

My question - would my set up benefit from a cab sim rather than just a pre amp? Given the active electronics in my behses, is there a better option than the AG? I’ve looked into Origin Effects, DSMHumboldt, Walrus, Broughton, etc. Yes, I have tried the Sansamp, even recorded with it and…I don’t like it. I would be looking for something transparent that I can tweak a bit if need be. I’m not much of a twiddler (for example: my Empress bass compressor is wonderful, but my Keely bassist is idiot proof),so I tend to like simpler formats without user interface screens. Oh, about the compressor - do I even need one at this point? I’m playing in a classic rock cover band and we gig out once or twice a week.

Side note: not lugging an amplifier and hearing everything clearly has been a blessing.
Exploiter, I feel you and I both echo and want to expand on what Reyalpabut said above. Cab sims could be cool but aren’t a necessity especially if the sound you are going for is relatively ‘clean’. IMO what IS a necessity is a great preamp and DI signal to FOH. For me I was able to get this done with an older Ampeg Tube DI/Khan tube DI circuit. I like the Aguilar ‘agro’ preamp sound, too but I’d encourage you to experiment with the DI you are using if you aren’t 100% sold on the results you are getting now.

For ‘next level’ situations here’s what I’ve tried:

For jobbing situations (wedding bands, etc.) I’ve been showing up with IEMs, my own belt pack headphone preamp that is XLR tp 1/8” and a Torpedo cab and preamp simulator. I’ve found that I prefer the Ampeg B15 S (emphasis on the ‘S’: NOT the B15-N) amp simulation that gives me some warmth, removes some sub sonic and ultra high frequencies, adds some odd order distortion characteristics and some very mild compression. This is OK but not perfect. I’ve found some issues with latency (3 to 5 miliseconds) that aren’t a dealbreaker but bother me just a little bit. And obvs.- if something happens with my rig ot the FOH P.A. the show is OVER. Except for the drums. Maybe I’m paranoid but that is not very comfortable for me.

In another situation, touring with a dedicated IEM rig and a pro sound engineer supporting the group I’ve used the same Ampeg tube DI with a very small amplifier on stage. For example, a 50 watt Orange combo that is super portable, an SWR Baby Blue 2x8 combo that is relatively easy to move or an actual Ampeg B15-S fliptop that is a complete pain in the A$$ to move. The strategy here is to set the amp on stage to a low volume with just the right sound. Then we mic the amp offering the FOH engineer a choice between the Mic’ed and the DI signals for bass. I have the same choice for myself in my IEMs and the others on stage get to blend these two signals in their monitors. This is ideal. If you have the needed input channels available and don’t mind schlepping a small amp to the gig you end up with a ‘real’ cab sim instead of a virtual one if that makes sense. One of the big advantages of this is that FOH has much more choice and flexibility about what they are sending to the PA vs the IEM sends.

The other advantage is that if the tech goes wrong (and hey- some day it WILL go wrong!) there’s still a small bass amp on stage and the ‘show can go on’ especially if you are playing with a drummer with sensitivity and good technique.

I hope this helps!
 
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There's a bit ambiguity in your question and the responses: is the issue the sound in YOUR ears, or the sound out front?

The distinction doesn't matter too much when you're running old school, but with IEM's the two problems are (ideally) completely separate.

a) The sound in your ears isn't awesome. Don't sweat it... can you hear what you need to hear? If not, work on the IEM mix. You need clarity but there's no point in worrying about getting an awesome bass tone in your ears, because no one else can hear it. It's just a tool for you to get the job done.

b) the sound out front isn't awesome. How do you know? You can' hear it. If you start tweaking your sound when you're hearing it through IEM's can mean your IEM's sound better, but you're making the FOH sound (which was probably fine before had) worse.

All you can do is a) make sure you can hear everything you need, and b) send the sound guy a good solid bass part without too much tweaking. IF you send a good raw sound to a good sound guy he can compress, EQ or whatever else to make it sound awesome. If you send him a heavily processed sound then he can't undo those changes. If you trust your sound guy then let him do his job. If you don't trust your sound guy then get a new sound guy
 
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Hi everyone. So I’m going down a rabbit hole with this switch to using IEMs and no amp for rehearsals and live gigs. I’m a total noob when it comes to this stuff, have done searches, etc, but still scratching my head over a few things. Thanking you in advance for your kind input.

My current set up is behs<compressor<Aguilar AG preamp/di<board. I will run a tuner or Shure wireless before the compressor depending on the venue.

For behs, I’m currently playing Spector NS2’s with 9 volt preamps.

The sound is ok; my IEM setup is Sennheiser XSW transmitter/receiver Mackie MP-460 ear buds.

My question - would my set up benefit from a cab sim rather than just a pre amp? Given the active electronics in my behses, is there a better option than the AG? I’ve looked into Origin Effects, DSMHumboldt, Walrus, Broughton, etc. Yes, I have tried the Sansamp, even recorded with it and…I don’t like it. I would be looking for something transparent that I can tweak a bit if need be. I’m not much of a twiddler (for example: my Empress bass compressor is wonderful, but my Keely bassist is idiot proof),so I tend to like simpler formats without user interface screens. Oh, about the compressor - do I even need one at this point? I’m playing in a classic rock cover band and we gig out once or twice a week.

Side note: not lugging an amplifier and hearing everything clearly has been a blessing.

I think the answer is a clear “maybe.” You’ll have to try it out and see.

I’ve been ampless for a couple of years now and found that less is more, did not find a cab sim that I felt was a positive addition for our system. I stick with amp sim, 10 band EQ, and a little OD plus whatever compression the sound man adds in the system (I like compression but found what I was using didn’t always play nice with what the desk was doing, so I took it out).
 
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Hi everyone. So I’m going down a rabbit hole with this switch to using IEMs and no amp for rehearsals and live gigs. I’m a total noob when it comes to this stuff, have done searches, etc, but still scratching my head over a few things. Thanking you in advance for your kind input.

My current set up is behs<compressor<Aguilar AG preamp/di<board. I will run a tuner or Shure wireless before the compressor depending on the venue.

For behs, I’m currently playing Spector NS2’s with 9 volt preamps.

The sound is ok; my IEM setup is Sennheiser XSW transmitter/receiver Mackie MP-460 ear buds.

My question - would my set up benefit from a cab sim rather than just a pre amp? Given the active electronics in my behses, is there a better option than the AG? I’ve looked into Origin Effects, DSMHumboldt, Walrus, Broughton, etc. Yes, I have tried the Sansamp, even recorded with it and…I don’t like it. I would be looking for something transparent that I can tweak a bit if need be. I’m not much of a twiddler (for example: my Empress bass compressor is wonderful, but my Keely bassist is idiot proof),so I tend to like simpler formats without user interface screens. Oh, about the compressor - do I even need one at this point? I’m playing in a classic rock cover band and we gig out once or twice a week.

Side note: not lugging an amplifier and hearing everything clearly has been a blessing.
You need IEMs with multiple drivers in them to handle the type of low end you and your drummer will put out. You also need them to fit well....I'm talking complete isolation of your ears. IEMs should be ran at low volumes with great ear isolation.

As for amp modeling? I think it's garbage personally. When I use my bass into my sadowsky preamp I simply turn the bass preamp off and use the sadowsky pedal. It sounds way better especially with passive pickups.

I find that when I run an active bass into a preamp I lose headroom and dynamics unless I back the volume off a bit.

When making your IEM mix make sure you use a "take away" approach. Mix down not up. To hear things better just turn down what you don't need to hear as much until the mix is balanced then adjust your overall IEM volume.
 
#1 most important aspect of IEM’s is the monitors you use. I went IEM back in 2023 when I got my current gig. Went thru 4-5 different IEM’s (custom molds, shure, earbuds) ironically, the one that came with my Sennhieser system turned out to be the least expensive and for me, most effective. The Sennheiser IE4 with Sonic foam tips attached. The seal in your ear canal is THE most important aspect of getting LOUD, FULL bass tone in your skull.

Experience will train you on getting the proper mix, but without the ability to make your bass the prominent object in the mix( and without a sealed ear canal that wont happen) all the mixing in the world wont allow you to hear your instrument optimally. Also, once you’ve got your mix, lower the volume to the lowest amount that still allows you to hear clearly. IEM’s will save your ears from damage, when used correctly.

But before you go trying expensive IEM’s install some sonic foam tips on the IE4’s your system comes with, and see if you like what you hear.
 
My question - would my set up benefit from a cab sim rather than just a pre amp?


The answer depends on specifically what you think bass should sound like. If you prefer the sound of an amp and cab, then a cab SIM may be very useful. However it's not a matter of buying a random cab SIM and calling it done. You have to find a SIM that is capable of producing the sound and response you want. My impression is there seems to be a pretty high level of disappointment in available cab SIMs. You may find this recent thread informative: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/are-all-cab-irs-terrible.1685670/

Ideally you would know how the mixer is configured, and understand the ramifications of every adjustment you ask for or make. But not everyone has the interest in learning the ins and outs of how something as complex as an audio system works. The following may seem confusing and long. I suggest reading through it; not necessarily to fully understand, but at least to get some idea of the level of complexity you may be dealing with.

There is pretty much an infinite number of ways an IEM system can be implemented, and most of the options are somewhat messy. By messy I mean they probably don't work they you think and they are probably not capable of giving everyone exactly what the want. In order to avoid unnecessary frustration, you need realistic expectations. Live sound rarely approaches ideal. It's often more about trying to achieve the best possible compromise, which often falls far sort of desired results. Sorry this is reality IMHO.

The purest implementation of IEMs involves splitting the signal into separate monitor and front of house (FOH) mixers. This option allows the bass to be optimized for both the house and monitor mixes. This level of system is fairly rare for most of us. @s0c9 has provide some very good information on this type of system.

Some digital mixers can be split to essentially function as two separate mixers. For example I have run Yamaha LS9s set up so channels 1-32 were for the FOH mix on Fader level A. The inputs were dual assigned to channels 33-64 which were used for monitor mixes on Fader level B. IME, this sort of setup is confusing and labor intensive. It can be extremely useful, but I would only recommend it if you always use the same audio tech and PA.

The most common approach is to use one mixer for both FOH and monitors. FOH is run on the main stereo buss and monitors are run off of Aux Sends. A big limiting factor with this sort of setup is there is only one set of controls on each channel. The controls can be used to dial in the bass for the FOH mix, or they can be used to dial in the bass for the monitor mixes. For the most part the only channels controls that are separate for FOH and monitor mixes is the level controls.

IMHO if you view yourself as a professional, you should probably prioritize what the audience hears to some extent, but you need a tone you can work with. Rather than trying to direct the audio tech how to dial in a sound you can use, IMHO it can be better if you have some processing at your fingertips that allows you to get a usable sound. This is where a preamp DI or cab SIM could be useful. Keep in mind any modification you make to your tone will impact every mix that has bass in it. So try to get your sound dialed in early and then lock it down during the show. Also, if your tone settings are too extreme, you may need to work out a compromise with the audio tech.

If you need a level bump during the show, its best if the change is made on the mixer in way that does not impact the main mix or other monitor mixes. In other words, ideally you should not bump the level you are sending to FOH because it can cause a lot of problems. Some digital boards allow you to use a phone app to adjust send levels for your IEM mix, so basically you can adjust the balance of sound sources in your personal mix without impacting any other mixes. Some systems do not have this functionality, so you have to ask the audio tech to make adjustments for you.

The way a mixer channel is configured can vary considerably. There is variation from one mixer to the next, and different audio techs may use different configurations based on their philosophy and work flow preferences. Usually the signal that goes to FOH flows through the entire channel strip. But many mixers have a range of selectable pick-off points for the Aux Sends. The most basic setting is Pre VS Post fader. For monitors the Aux Sends should normally be set to pre fader. If they are set to post fader, then any balance changes the audio tech makes to the main mix will translate over into the monitor mixes.

Another important option is Pre VS Post EQ. If the aux send is set to post EQ then any changes to the channel tone controls will translate to both the monitor mixes and the FOH mix. If the aux send is set to pre EQ, then changes to the tone controls are applied to signal that goes to the FOH mix, but the signal going to the monitors is not impacted. Which is better depends on the situation and preferred functionality. Philosophically I think the channel controls should be used to make the house mix sound as good as possible. Sometimes the required adjustments can be quite extreme and severely degrade what is heard in the monitor mixes. So using Pre EQ for the monitor mixes can definitely be useful.

Basic systems tend to have less features and controls. With an entry-level analog board, you may have gain and a few tone controls on the channels. With a more advanced system, you may get variable HPFs, compression, 4 bands of parametric EQ, and effects for each channel. The system may also have global compression and advanced EQ options on mix busses/output. FYI, "global" controls effect an entire mix rather than an individual channel or sound source.

This is sort of scratching the surface. Hopefully this is enough to give you a better idea of the complexity you may be dealing with.

Good luck!
 
I have been on a "figuring out an ampless, silent rehearsal" rig for a couple years. I am a hobbiest who gigs with a couple of bands once or twice a month. Check out my sig for more details. A few things I have learned (that maybe I should have already known).

1. My silent rehearsal rig and my gigging rig are not the same. My local scene requires an amp. It took me a while to realize what sound great through the amp (or which EQ sounds great through the amp) may not sound great through my IEMs.

2. I went through a lot of over the ear headphones, did not find any I liked in terms of keeping the drums out of my ears or solid bass response. Went to KZ S10 pros, better than any over the ears I tried for sealing out the drums. I would like to try some customs, but ... money.

3. At the moment, I think a Cab Sim really helps me hear my IEM tone. But I also use a lot of OD. When I first started this journey, I really struggled to tame the top end, and to hear -- anything -- on the clean tones. I went through several pre-amps/DIs, I need to go back and try some of those again (and sell a few), because I am certain user error was at play.

4. Learning how to set my personal mix into my IEMs through CQ4U took some time, and we are effects heavy so things change every jam. I can not imagine doing the IEM thing without a personal mix, I keep the bass prominent.

5. Learning some very basic info about the mixer we are using helped a lot to. Our guitar/keyboardist has the studio in his basement, is great with the mixer, but pretty busy focusing on his elaborate set up and general band mix. We discovered we could both running the main software for the mix at the same time, and that helped a lot for me in terms of gain staging into the mixer, because I was clipping it, kicking in an auto-gain response, and dropping tons of volume in the middle of a jam. Until I was able to watch my gain setting in the mixer, I did not understand what was up, and now I can fix it myself, and have a rough sense of how much headroom I need in the mixer.

Again, rookie stuff here. But maybe it helps someone who is just getting into this. Big learning curve for me.
 
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Best advice I can give is to just make your bass sound good. I went ampless years ago. I have a line6 HX Stomp XL with a compressor, octaver, amp sim, and a couple one-off effects in the chain. The comp is on all the time. I’ve used a cab sim in the past both live and for recording and it sometimes sounds good and sometimes isn’t what I want. If it all breaks at the gig though, my basses sound good enough on their own that I can play an ampless gig with a headstock tuner, a cable, and a passive DI box. The point is when you play an ampless gig, you’re trying to give the FOH and monitor mixer a good useful sound that sounds good in your ears and sounds good out front. There are no rules about what effects or gear you use to achieve that goal.
 
Yes, I have tried the Sansamp, even recorded with it and…I don’t like it. I would be looking for something transparent that I can tweak a bit if need be.

Oh, about the compressor - do I even need one at this point?
i'd say you have the answers to your questions right here!

if you like the transparent sound of the bass then you don't need any kind of amp sim, if it's an active bass with its own EQ control then you may not need any kind of extra preamp, and if you don't obviously prefer the sound of having a comp then don't use that either

(me i use a passive bass and i like the sound of an amp with a bit of grit and compression on it, so my in-ear setup has both, a sansamp and a compressor)