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New convert to IEM/ampless for live gigs - help!!!
- Thread starter Exploiter007
- Start date
Is asking what BEHS means being a dipstick? Why not just answer the question?
Getting custom made IEM’s is the best thing I’ve ever done and I wish I had done it sooner. The comfort, fit and isolation is 100% worth it!
Amp/cab models do three things:
1) They cut low end - speakers all cut low end at some point. How much low end you want to cut and at what frequency is up to you. I play ampless gigs through huge PA's that do not need low end rolloff of the low fundamentals to protect the woofers. I have a High pass filter on my pedalboard, but it's strictly there for subsonic stuff - set at 17.5Hz. If FOH wants to do any more, that's up to them. But if they want full range, it's there.
2) They color the midrange in a way that you may or may not like. I have an equalizer on my board that does what little EQ I want in the mids - I dial in what I want, I don't just pick a speaker model that sounds OK.
2) They roll off high frequencies. Your bass has rolloff in the highs - all pickups roll off high end to some extent. If you play clean, you may not need any additoinal rolloff up there, but if you use dirt pedals, you probably want some (after the dirt in the signal chain) - dirt pedals are designed with the assumption that you'll run the signal through an amp and speaker. For an ampless rig, you need something to do what the speaker would do for dirty signals.
A cab sim does all 3, but in an preset/inaccessible manner - you pull up a model, and hope it does what you want. A Sansamp has some control, but it also has some stuff baked in - some folks love them, I don't - I like less signal manipulation than what a Sansamp does..
I use Source Audio EQ2's which do all 3 functions (and a tuner!!!), and the details are fully accessible for you to dial in - however you want.
One of the nice things about ampless gigs is that, when you go home, your pedalboard into a small mixer (so you can mix in whatever you're playing with) goes from your "gigging amp", to your "practice amp" (and vice versa). That way, you can dial in precisely the sound you want at home, you rehearse with that sound, and on the gig, your bass sounds exactly the same as it did at home - no futzing with an amp in a random room. FOH worries about making your instrument work in the room, you just play.
1) They cut low end - speakers all cut low end at some point. How much low end you want to cut and at what frequency is up to you. I play ampless gigs through huge PA's that do not need low end rolloff of the low fundamentals to protect the woofers. I have a High pass filter on my pedalboard, but it's strictly there for subsonic stuff - set at 17.5Hz. If FOH wants to do any more, that's up to them. But if they want full range, it's there.
2) They color the midrange in a way that you may or may not like. I have an equalizer on my board that does what little EQ I want in the mids - I dial in what I want, I don't just pick a speaker model that sounds OK.
2) They roll off high frequencies. Your bass has rolloff in the highs - all pickups roll off high end to some extent. If you play clean, you may not need any additoinal rolloff up there, but if you use dirt pedals, you probably want some (after the dirt in the signal chain) - dirt pedals are designed with the assumption that you'll run the signal through an amp and speaker. For an ampless rig, you need something to do what the speaker would do for dirty signals.
A cab sim does all 3, but in an preset/inaccessible manner - you pull up a model, and hope it does what you want. A Sansamp has some control, but it also has some stuff baked in - some folks love them, I don't - I like less signal manipulation than what a Sansamp does..
I use Source Audio EQ2's which do all 3 functions (and a tuner!!!), and the details are fully accessible for you to dial in - however you want.
One of the nice things about ampless gigs is that, when you go home, your pedalboard into a small mixer (so you can mix in whatever you're playing with) goes from your "gigging amp", to your "practice amp" (and vice versa). That way, you can dial in precisely the sound you want at home, you rehearse with that sound, and on the gig, your bass sounds exactly the same as it did at home - no futzing with an amp in a random room. FOH worries about making your instrument work in the room, you just play.
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Custom made buds tend to be pretty good at isolation - the early ones weren't, but the plastics they use nowadays are usually flexible enough to maintain a good seal. If you can get a good seal with universals (triple flange tips do that for me), they can be as good as customs. In the early days of IEMS, universals actually isolated better - for singers especially, as their ear canals change shape when they sing, which would cause leaks in customs.
Thanks for the lesson. I don’t sing, but my audiologist still took molds with a measured spacer for me to bite on, because they work with 64 audio all the time. My original statement is true for me, it’s the best IEM experience I’ve ever had and best investment I have made since I play direct, silent stages most of the time.
Nothing wrong with sticking with what works for you. All my gigs are IEM/ampless (have been for quite a while), so I understand the necessity for good earbuds and a seal that always works.
My thought runs along two lines. One is what is coming out of your ear buds and the other is what you are sending the house.
IEMs are your personal monitor. Theoretically, you can have your bass sound like tuba accompanied only by the hi-hat cymbal if that’s what one wants, but seriously, this is your mix. Set it up so you are comfortable.
For me playing in a classic rock band, I recently bought an Ampeg SGT DI. It comes with the SVT head and 810 cab simulators. B-15 amp and cab, and a 410 cab simulator. You can download some additional simulators if you wish.it has a one know (idiot proof) compression as well as controls for grind and full blown distortion. Also has head phone out, and media input with level control perfect for silent practice, sweepable midrange control
So, if you are looking for simple useful features, in a compact single unit from a brand that is known as the voice of the classic rock bass sound, Ampeg, this is it worth exploring. Online videos are available. Personally, it’s better on the job than the videos show.
So, are you involved with the house mix? Do you send pre-or post feed. If you are sending post effects, I would consult your sound person if you are changing your set up.
Best wishes.
Good question...
It depends on what you're how you use your rig and if you can get the sound you're looking for out of the rig.
Here is my rig below: Shure wireless, MXR Compressor, Magellan PRE/DI
For me: I play really clean, have control over my tone, and be able to plug into any board with out any EQ or adjustments other than setting the input gain.
In my own PA, the EQ is flat, gate set to cut noise, compression set to protect speakers and input gain set depending on venue.
The gain from my Shure receiver buffers my different basses, I manage compression with my pedal, and tone and output gain is managed with my PRE/DI.
I originally started out using the MXR M81 Bass Preamp. This was a good pre-amp, but it was a little sterile for my taste. It was a great clean/transparent DI with really useful tone adjustments, but lacked that "ampness" from the DI. The Magellan Contour control put that "ampness" back in. The added bonus is the High Pass filter that allows me quick control based on the room and our volume.
Now, all I have to do to plug into a new board is tell the sound guy, just flatten everything out, give me a little gate, and we can sound check for input gain. (30 second silent sound check)
During the show I have my pedal sitting on a music stand within arms reach and I keep the mid frequency set to 1K. If I need to cut through some more, I turn my Mid clockwise, or if I lie back, I turn the Mid counter clockwise.
This little board beats hauling around my 800 watt head, and two 1x12 cabinets.
Good luck.
PCR
Short review on the Magellan PRE/DI
Last year I moved my band towards an ampless stage, and to run everything directly into the XR-18 PA with QSC K12.2 (or K10.2) and a RCF SUB 705-AS MK3 subwoofer.
My stage rig for the last 11 or 12 years had always been Shure GLXD wireless into a MXR Compressor, then into my Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 and (x2) Mark Bass NYC121 cabs.
Since going ampless, my previous pre-amp was a MXR M-81 Bass Preamp. It was good, and I was able to get a decent tone, but it just lacked a little "amp like" sound.
So two weeks ago...
I’ve been IEM + ampless for 8 years. A couple things I’ve learned:
- What I need to hear to perform well is almost always different than what sounds good for FOH. I want clarity above all else in my ears so I can hear pitch & timing accurately. This usually means a HPF around 50Hz and an upper midrange bump of 3-5dB but varies a bit with room and speaker placement. Don’t try to duplicate the FOH experience in your ears, just focus on the critical things that you need to do your best. For example, my bass and my vocals are the loudest things in my mix, with some kick, lead guitar, and lead vocals in there to make sure I know what’s happening. I don’t mix all of our channels into my mix - just the mission critical things.
- IEM fit/seal/isolation are super important.
- You still need to manage overall volume - Keep it as low as possible. You can damage your hearing with IEMs just as easily as you can without them. Ears - You only get two…
- Hearing fatigue is real. What works at the start of a gig may need to change later. (See overall volume note above…)
Hope this helps…
- What I need to hear to perform well is almost always different than what sounds good for FOH. I want clarity above all else in my ears so I can hear pitch & timing accurately. This usually means a HPF around 50Hz and an upper midrange bump of 3-5dB but varies a bit with room and speaker placement. Don’t try to duplicate the FOH experience in your ears, just focus on the critical things that you need to do your best. For example, my bass and my vocals are the loudest things in my mix, with some kick, lead guitar, and lead vocals in there to make sure I know what’s happening. I don’t mix all of our channels into my mix - just the mission critical things.
- IEM fit/seal/isolation are super important.
- You still need to manage overall volume - Keep it as low as possible. You can damage your hearing with IEMs just as easily as you can without them. Ears - You only get two…
- Hearing fatigue is real. What works at the start of a gig may need to change later. (See overall volume note above…)
Hope this helps…
I like a mix of both di and speaker sim for both FOH and in my mix. The speaker sim smooths things out a bit... but too much and the FOH tends to get a bit muddy and thin at the same time. Worth note, is I don't run a completely clean signal.... I prefer a touch of grunt in the low mids.
s0c9
Supporting Member
I play in multiple bands and most are “silent stage” so a good IEM mix is an absolute.
All of them have on-stage mixers with splits to FOH. I plug my pedalboard into the splitter box.
IEM wireless feed from AUX out with mix control via external router and tablet.
Yesterday’s gig was different.. one of the 8-piece band members was inadvertently making changes to my mix, repeatedly cutting out my bass (sacrilege) and boosting lead vox numerous times after I had made corrections.
This has lead me to looking at an alternate monitor solution for this one band - to make sure I get bass in my ears. I don’t have this problem with the other bands. I don’t want to go back to an “amp on stage” config and have to lug it to our numerous out of town (neighboring states) gigs.
All of them have on-stage mixers with splits to FOH. I plug my pedalboard into the splitter box.
IEM wireless feed from AUX out with mix control via external router and tablet.
Yesterday’s gig was different.. one of the 8-piece band members was inadvertently making changes to my mix, repeatedly cutting out my bass (sacrilege) and boosting lead vox numerous times after I had made corrections.
This has lead me to looking at an alternate monitor solution for this one band - to make sure I get bass in my ears. I don’t have this problem with the other bands. I don’t want to go back to an “amp on stage” config and have to lug it to our numerous out of town (neighboring states) gigs.
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I've read enough of your posts to know you have a lot more experience with wireless and with mixing than I do, but throwing this out there just in case it's something that helps ...
I use an A&H CQ-20 B mixer and its monitor mixer app lets you lock the app once you selected your own monitor mix. So, after I got everyone in my band set up with their monitor mixer app, I applied the lock on the device they use to control their monitor mixes. Now there's no way they can inadvertently adjust someone else's mix.
I'm still using the A&H mixer app myself, but a sound guy we recently hired for a gig uses Mixing Station (which has a port for the CQ series) and he said that Mixing Station allows you to lock an individual monitor mix the same way. I can't confirm that myself, not yet anyway, because I only recently downloaded Mixing Station but haven't really played with it yet. But, getting to the point, do you have a way to lock individuals into their own monitor mix so that they can't make that kind of mistake?
FWIW, I got volunteered by the rest of my band to become our new sound guy after our old guitarist/soundguy left. He used a Soundcraft Ui16 and there were plenty of times when someone forgot to go to the Aux Out page and select their aux channel before mucking with what they thought was their monitor mix. That understandably drove him nuts, which is one of the reason I ended up buying the A&H. Once I found they had a dedicated monitor mixing app that you could lock to an individual Aux Out, that became a factor in my buying decision.
I use an A&H CQ-20 B mixer and its monitor mixer app lets you lock the app once you selected your own monitor mix. So, after I got everyone in my band set up with their monitor mixer app, I applied the lock on the device they use to control their monitor mixes. Now there's no way they can inadvertently adjust someone else's mix.
I'm still using the A&H mixer app myself, but a sound guy we recently hired for a gig uses Mixing Station (which has a port for the CQ series) and he said that Mixing Station allows you to lock an individual monitor mix the same way. I can't confirm that myself, not yet anyway, because I only recently downloaded Mixing Station but haven't really played with it yet. But, getting to the point, do you have a way to lock individuals into their own monitor mix so that they can't make that kind of mistake?
FWIW, I got volunteered by the rest of my band to become our new sound guy after our old guitarist/soundguy left. He used a Soundcraft Ui16 and there were plenty of times when someone forgot to go to the Aux Out page and select their aux channel before mucking with what they thought was their monitor mix. That understandably drove him nuts, which is one of the reason I ended up buying the A&H. Once I found they had a dedicated monitor mixing app that you could lock to an individual Aux Out, that became a factor in my buying decision.
