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Double Bass New Pickup MSP (Magnet Sandwiched Pickup)

#41
ee-san said:
To illustrate drurb's points in message 29, shown below are wave forms of plucked open E and A double bass strings transduced by an Underwood piezo bridge pickup, an AT35 clip-on microphone pointing upward through the bridge legs, and a Radio Shack Clip-on microphone pointing into the G-side F-hole. I've added plucked E and A strings on a Fender P-Bass with a Quarter-Pounder magnetic pickup for further contrast. Each signal was amplified through a Walter Woods head connected to a 12-inch speaker cabinet and recorded via microphone placed in front the speaker.

Note the higher, sustained intensity in the latter halves of the pickup notes compared to the sharp decays from the microphones aimed at the table.

Underwood Piezo Pickup
View attachment 688105


AT35 Clip-on Microphone

View attachment 688102


Radio Shack Clip-On Microphone

View attachment 688101


P-Bass Magnetic Pickup

View attachment 688100
Click to expand...
Beautiful! Thanks for posting these. Of particular importance is that you measured at the output of the speaker. Your plots demonstrate that the expected differences in the responses of the different transducers are are not washed out by any deficits in the transient responses of the stages in the signal chain. Rather, they are carried through to the speaker output.

For anyone interested, I mentioned the temporal attack/decay profile in post #22 of this thread and referred to the Ehrlund thread where this discussion began over three years ago.

Thanks again for taking the time to make the recordings!
 
#42
ee-san said:
To illustrate drurb's points in message 29, shown below are wave forms of plucked open E and A double bass strings transduced by an Underwood piezo bridge pickup, an AT35 clip-on microphone pointing upward through the bridge legs, and a Radio Shack Clip-on microphone pointing into the G-side F-hole. I've added plucked E and A strings on a Fender P-Bass with a Quarter-Pounder magnetic pickup for further contrast. Each signal was amplified through a Walter Woods head connected to a 12-inch speaker cabinet and recorded via microphone placed in front the speaker.

Note the higher, sustained intensity in the latter halves of the pickup notes compared to the sharp decays from the microphones aimed at the table.

Underwood Piezo Pickup
View attachment 688105


AT35 Clip-on Microphone

View attachment 688102


Radio Shack Clip-On Microphone

View attachment 688101


P-Bass Magnetic Pickup

View attachment 688100
Click to expand...

ee-san

That's a great "real world" evaluation of the attack transents for each pickup. Congradulations! I applaud you for taking the time to evaluate the pickups running through a high quality amp and speaker.
You've comfirmed what my ears tell me. All the pickups I've owned, (even the Ehrlund) have more sustain than my DPA 4099B which has more clarity and definition, but less sustain. Since I have one of these MSP's coming
my way. It will be interesting to see how "Ehrlund" like it is. To my ears, MAP's timbre, in the demo video, that Icpierce was so kind to take the time to carefully record, the MSP has a little more edge in it's attack. But as we all know
every bass, and pickup yeild dramatically different results. The thing I love about the Ehrlund is it's ability to blend with the other instruments in the ensemble, that similar to the way the Double Bass blends acoustically. It
freaked me out the first time I used it on a gig, but now I wouldn't have it any other way.

Ric
 
#43
Ric Vice said:
ee-san

That's a great "real world" evaluation of the attack transents for each pickup. Congradulations! I applaud you for taking the time to evaluate the pickups running through a high quality amp and speaker.
You've comfirmed what my ears tell me. All the pickups I've owned, (even the Ehrlund) have more sustain than my DPA 4099B which has more clarity and definition, but less sustain. Since I have one of these MSP's coming
my way. It will be interesting to see how "Ehrlund" like it is. To my ears, MAP's timbre, in the demo video, that Icpierce was so kind to take the time to carefully record, the MSP has a little more edge in it's attack. But as we all know
every bass, and pickup yeild dramatically different results. The thing I love about the Ehrlund is it's ability to blend with the other instruments in the ensemble, that similar to the way the Double Bass blends acoustically. It
freaked me out the first time I used it on a gig, but now I wouldn't have it any other way.

Ric
Click to expand...
Indeed! I suspect that if ee-san had been able to include the Ehrlund, we'd see that its transient characteristics would look very much like those of the mics he tested.
 
#45
ee-san said:
To illustrate drurb's points in message 29, shown below are wave forms of plucked open E and A double bass strings transduced by an Underwood piezo bridge pickup, an AT35 clip-on microphone pointing upward through the bridge legs, and a Radio Shack Clip-on microphone pointing into the G-side F-hole. I've added plucked E and A strings on a Fender P-Bass with a Quarter-Pounder magnetic pickup for further contrast. Each signal was amplified through a Walter Woods head connected to a 12-inch speaker cabinet and recorded via microphone placed in front the speaker.

Note the higher, sustained intensity in the latter halves of the pickup notes compared to the sharp decays from the microphones aimed at the table.

Underwood Piezo Pickup
View attachment 688105


AT35 Clip-on Microphone

View attachment 688102


Radio Shack Clip-On Microphone

View attachment 688101


P-Bass Magnetic Pickup

View attachment 688100
Click to expand...
Very interesting. It could be interesting to see the difference between two Underwood elements, and just one (on the E-side fx). No one is ever satisfied, huh?
 
#48
Matt Ides said:
Now I know why the underwood just makes the URB sound just like a BG :)
Click to expand...

+1 There was a time when the Underwood was a god send, because the options were either a Toby Magnetic, Polytone, Barcus Berry, or Fishman BP-100. It was far and away the
best thing on the market for many years. The Realist and Full Circle, were the second wave, and now we have the Ehrlund and the DPA 4099B.

Ric
 
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#49
I do wonder whether soundboard transducers can often miss some of the higher frequency string/fingerboard noises which are part of the acoustic sound though. When using microphones to record with I've noticed that using a second mic pointed towards the upper fingerboard really adds something to the attack and articulation of the notes when playing pizz. I get the impression that these are sounds we hear in part direct from the strings, as they seem disproportionately loud on an unamped solid bodied EUB for example - that unpitched "clack" at the start of a note which would sound awful on its own but acts almost like a consonant at the start of a word when heard in proportion with the body of the note.
My AKG C411 mounted on the soundboard never picked up quite enough of these sounds for my taste, and trying it in different positions suggests that these high frequency transients are picked up more strongly the closer to the bridge and strings you get. The BP100 would be an extreme example as it seems to really exaggerate these sounds beyond what most bassists want to hear, but just a little can sound good. So it may be that players who have stuck with their bridge transducers miss that component of the note when it's not there.
 
#50
Martin Beer said:
I do wonder whether soundboard transducers can often miss some of the higher frequency string/fingerboard noises which are part of the acoustic sound though. When using microphones to record with I've noticed that using a second mic pointed towards the upper fingerboard really adds something to the attack and articulation of the notes when playing pizz. I get the impression that these are sounds we hear in part direct from the strings, as they seem disproportionately loud on an unamped solid bodied EUB for example - that unpitched "clack" at the start of a note which would sound awful on its own but acts almost like a consonant at the start of a word when heard in proportion with the body of the note.
My AKG C411 mounted on the soundboard never picked up quite enough of these sounds for my taste, and trying it in different positions suggests that these high frequency transients are picked up more strongly the closer to the bridge and strings you get. The BP100 would be an extreme example as it seems to really exaggerate these sounds beyond what most bassists want to hear, but just a little can sound good. So it may be that players who have stuck with their bridge transducers miss that component of the note when it's not there.
Click to expand...
While admittedly often desirable, I tend to think of such string/fingerboard noise as somewhat artificial. I think very little of that is heard by a listener sitting several feet from a DB being played without amplification. As players, we are used to hearing those sounds radiated acoustically because we are right next to the instrument. Those sounds are amplified and transmitted quite effectively by close-miking and, as you point out, by bridge-mounted pickups. For better or for worse, it seems that transducers mounted on the table tend to yield an amplified sound that is, in that regard, closer to what would be heard a few feet away from the instrument. That's actually one of the aspects of them that I appreciate.
 
#51
Matt Ides said:
Now I know why the underwood just makes the URB sound just like a BG :)
Click to expand...

This I think is my motivation for finding a better solution. For the past year or so I've been mixing a clip on mic with a lifeline pickup, and the results sound good, but it's overly complicated, and I've really only been able to achieve "good for a pickup" type sound. The trouble is you have to mic the bass so closely to get a good level before feedback (I usually play amped with a drummer) that the mic doesn't end up sounding all that natural either.

Probably should just shell out for the Ehrlund, on account of buying cheap and paying twice and all that, but who knows, maybe the MSP will be a $99 gem!
 
#52
This is a very interesting thread. Having tried a few pick ups and a troll mic over the last 3 years, I've come to the conclusion that for my bass the Ehrlund gives a great, natural and woody tone. It does miss a little string articulation and attack and I'm still searching for the perfect thing to blend it with.

The troll mic is good with all the bass cut out but limited in volume/feedback.

The band kind of works but is a pain to install and when it's on I feel like I only have to gently touch the bass and it gets amplified very loudly.

I'm still looking for something that can maybe be positioned under the finger board and pick up some of the string goodness so I can blend it in.
 
#53
The MSP arrived from Japan a couple of days ago, and i've been experimenting with it ever since.

My carved bass is in the shop (getting it back today), so i've been trying the MSP with my plywood NS Cleveland. My Cleveland is running Spiro Weichs.

I had an Ehrlund pickup a few years ago and couldn't get it to work with the Cleveland, so I had my doubts about the MSP.

1st impressions: Similar sound to the Ehrlund- sounds like a contact mike. Also similar is the extreme tonal change from small 5mm adjustments in the pickup position on my bass.

Installation is easy- put the pickup by the F hole and slip the magnet underneath. The magnet is so strong you can drag the pickup around the top of your bass.

I spent 3 hours experimenting with positions. Found one by the bass bar 1 inch south of the bridge. Don't drag the pickup over the bassbar! The magnet will fall off. It's an easy rescue though- chuck a coathanger inside and the magnet will clutch on using its magical scientific powers.

I'm used to a fullcircle, and the sound of the MSP (and the Ehrlund and Dyn B etc) is so different that it requires a rethink. The fullcircle is very different to my basses sound acoustically. Much more sustain and bass- i've gotten used to that when i plug in and so have the bands I play with.

The MSP blends much more with the bass sound- it's hard to tell when it's on because of that.
 
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#54
Peck_Time said:
The MSP arrived from Japan a couple of days ago, and i've been experimenting with it ever since.

My carved bass is in the shop (getting it back today), so i've been trying the MSP with my plywood NS Cleveland. My Cleveland is running Spiro Weichs.

I had an Ehrlund pickup a few years ago and couldn't get it to work with the Cleveland, so I had my doubts about the MSP.

1st impressions: Similar sound to the Ehrlund- sounds like a contact mike. Also similar is the extreme tonal change from small 5mm adjustments in the pickup position on my bass.

Installation is easy- put the pickup by the F hole and slip the magnet underneath. The magnet is so strong you can drag the pickup around the top of your bass.

I spent 3 hours experimenting with positions. Found one by the bass bar 1 inch south of the bridge. Don't drag the pickup over the bassbar! The magnet will fall off. It's an easy rescue though- chuck a coathanger inside and the magnet will clutch on using its magical scientific powers.

I'm used to a fullcircle, and the sound of the MSP (and the Ehrlund and Dyn B etc) is so different that it requires a rethink. The fullcircle is very different to my basses sound acoustically. Much more sustain and bass- i've gotten used to that when i plug in and so have the bands I play with.

The MSP blends much more with the bass sound- it's hard to tell when it's on because of that.
Click to expand...
would you mind experimenting with it on different spots on the bridge and legs as well?
 
#57
Peck_Time said:
The MSP arrived from Japan a couple of days ago, and i've been experimenting with it ever since.

My carved bass is in the shop (getting it back today), so i've been trying the MSP with my plywood NS Cleveland. My Cleveland is running Spiro Weichs.

I had an Ehrlund pickup a few years ago and couldn't get it to work with the Cleveland, so I had my doubts about the MSP.

1st impressions: Similar sound to the Ehrlund- sounds like a contact mike. Also similar is the extreme tonal change from small 5mm adjustments in the pickup position on my bass.

Installation is easy- put the pickup by the F hole and slip the magnet underneath. The magnet is so strong you can drag the pickup around the top of your bass.

I spent 3 hours experimenting with positions. Found one by the bass bar 1 inch south of the bridge. Don't drag the pickup over the bassbar! The magnet will fall off. It's an easy rescue though- chuck a coathanger inside and the magnet will clutch on using its magical scientific powers.

I'm used to a fullcircle, and the sound of the MSP (and the Ehrlund and Dyn B etc) is so different that it requires a rethink. The fullcircle is very different to my basses sound acoustically. Much more sustain and bass- i've gotten used to that when i plug in and so have the bands I play with.

The MSP blends much more with the bass sound- it's hard to tell when it's on because of that.
Click to expand...

How is it volume wise? The reason I gave up on the Erhlund is I needed to crank the volume twice as loud on my amp to get the same level as the realist, with the Headway pre-amp.
 
#58
Matt Ides said:
How is it volume wise? The reason I gave up on the Erhlund is I needed to crank the volume twice as loud on my amp to get the same level as the realist, with the Headway pre-amp.
Click to expand...

My MSP arrived Monday, but I haven't yet had time to mount it and play around with it at the house. Since I'm always using a Walter Woods MI-400-8 ,Walter Woods Electroacoustic Ultra or a QSC K8 with the Ehrlund. The Headway EDB-2 is more than enough pre amp for the EAP. Volume has never been an issue with either my 5/8 Mirecourt, or my wife's Knilling. On my basses, with my gear, or into a P.A. the Ehrlund EAP, Headway EDB-2
combination, is incredible. My educated guess, is that my smaller French bass just has such a focused sound that
the Ehrlund is a perfect match.

Ric
 
#59
All, thanks for the comments on the wave form figures. Pictures are great but we all would agree that the ears rule at the end of the day. I also think the piezo pickup sounds a bit (not greatly) similar to a bass guitar and, in terms of sustain, somehow affects technique in a way similar to a bass guitar.

I don't have access to contact microphones or pickups but I'm confident somebody else can replicate my method with those items. Care to try?
 

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