New UV clear coat finishes for instruments?

[chinjazz]

I’ve connected with Matt at Avant and ordered some of the 830 to test. He was great to talk with and had deep finishing knowledge (30yrs) on everything from guitars, pianos, and high-end woodwork for planes and automobiles. He answered all my questions on the finishing, blocking sanding, buffing, and the proper spray nozzles to use for best results. Also recommended just using the sun to cure, for now, vs lights as he felt that gives a better cure, even though it’s cold outside in my area right now.

I’m looking forward to testing this out next week, I’ve got 2 unfinished bodies to spray for my testing.

Hey There Barticus,

I'm curious about how things turned out with the CI 830 Buffable Topcoat?
I started my deep dive on researching this, and sent my questions out to Avant, and Matt was very informative, and recommended 830 as well.

I'll flip for a quart to give it a try over the next few weeks/month.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[Barticus]

Hey There Barticus,

I'm curious about how things turned out with the CI 830 Buffable Topcoat?
I started my deep dive on researching this, and sent my questions out to Avant, and Matt was very informative, and recommended 830 as well.

I'll flip for a quart to give it a try over the next few weeks/month.

Thanks,
Adam

It’s been too cold here to spray, just now warming up. I bought 1qt gloss and 1qt matte and some of the filling paste.

Matt was super helpful, I spent about an hour on the phone with him and sharing pictures.

 

[chinjazz]

It’s been too cold here to spray, just now warming up. I bought 1qt gloss and 1qt matte and some of the filling paste.

Matt was super helpful, I spent about an hour on the phone with him and sharing pictures.

Gotcha, thanks! I need to look into what the filling paste is all about.

 

[Barticus]

Gotcha, thanks! I need to look into what the filling paste is all about.

I had some specific gaps in different wood species and Matt recommended the paste vs going back over with epoxy. Not used it yet.

 

[chinjazz]

I had some specific gaps in different wood species and Matt recommended the paste vs going back over with epoxy. Not used it yet.

Gotcha, thanks. While I only exchanged a few emails, I did get the impression that it doesn't cure over other materials like oils, ca glue, I'm assuming any other finish products. But I learned it's fine going on dyed/tinted (trans tint, mixol) .

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Fascinating stuff. I bought a pint of the Solarez UV cure to try as a clear infill for mica fretboard inlays, haven't tried it yet. I was planning on direct sunlight for the cure, or maybe one of the small UV "flashlights". This tech is advancing so fast on these materials, hopefully if it becomes more mainstream the prices will drop. Given my ultra-low output, I have to figure in cost per build and shelf life to figure out if something is worth buying. Any idea how far a quart would go as far as number of basses or guitars you could do with it?

 

[chinjazz]

Fascinating stuff. I bought a pint of the Solarez UV cure to try as a clear infill for mica fretboard inlays, haven't tried it yet. I was planning on direct sunlight for the cure, or maybe one of the small UV "flashlights". This tech is advancing so fast on these materials, hopefully if it becomes more mainstream the prices will drop. Given my ultra-low output, I have to figure in cost per build and shelf life to figure out if something is worth buying. Any idea how far a quart would go as far as number of basses or guitars you could do with it?

Matt said I could get two guitars done with a quart.

Did you get the “I can’t believe it’s not Laquer” iteration?

I tried the straight Solarez formula years ago and it was dicey with any light exposure. Had to be very controlled with when to expose. It was super hard though.

 

[chinjazz]

I think all three of these products (CleanArmor, SolarEz and UV-cured 3D resin) are similar basic chemistry: Water-base polyurethane with UV-curing additives. But they are different mixes, with different viscosities, made to be used in different ways. The 3D resin is a thicker liquid, to be pushed out a tiny nozzle and immediately cured. SolarEZ is made to be brushed on, allowed to flow out, then hit with the UV. CleanArmor is made to be sprayed, atomized into fine droplets, allowed to remix and flow out, and then hit with controlled UV.

There's a lot of complicated chemistry in these water-base polyurethanes. It's taken many years to develop this stuff, and new variants are coming onto the market every year. You can read about it on Target Coating's web site. They seem to be the company who has done the most R & D on water-base polyurethanes over time, and are still leading the way. They make the EmTech EM9300 that I currently use.

Target Coatings | WaterBased Wood Finishes and Coatings

Water-based wood finish pros trust Target Coatings for quality and high-end results. Ultra-low VOC, HAPS-free water-based coatings and finishes since 1988.

www.targetcoatings.com

Hi Bruce,

I feel I would be kind of bonkers at this point if I didn't actually consider your input while I experiment with these new finish options.
EMTech EM9300 is actually $108 per gallon (as of today), and at that volume, is certainly attractive for putting EM9300 into my "mix" to consider, test, etc.

In the expansive water based thread here on TB, you turned me onto Varathane Ultimate, which I've used on most of my instruments.
Really like it for a lot of reasons (workability, repair, multi coat daily schedule, etc).

I'll search TB:LC for your steps/schedule.

A few questions when you have time:

How hard is the finish once it's cured and ready to deliver? - Scratch testing?
(the cure time, wipe on, scratch testing drew me into CleanArmor)

How does it compare with Varathane Ultimate?

Target coatings says it's very brush and roller friendly. While spraying would be better for uniformity (in all cases).
Any thoughts about brush or wipe on? Does EM9300 spot repair, and work just like Varathane Ultimate?

Anyway, whenever you have a few moments

Thanks!
Adam

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Hi Bruce,

I feel I would be kind of bonkers at this point if I didn't actually consider your input while I experiment with these new finish options.
EMTech EM9300 is actually $108 per gallon (as of today), and at that volume, is certainly attractive for putting EM9300 into my "mix" to consider, test, etc.

In the expansive water based thread here on TB, you turned me onto Varathane Ultimate, which I've used on most of my instruments.
Really like it for a lot of reasons (workability, repair, multi coat daily schedule, etc).

I'll search TB:LC for your steps/schedule.

A few questions when you have time:

How hard is the finish once it's cured and ready to deliver? - Scratch testing?
(the cure time, wipe on, scratch testing drew me into CleanArmor)

How does it compare with Varathane Ultimate?

Target coatings says it's very brush and roller friendly. While spraying would be better for uniformity (in all cases).
Any thoughts about brush or wipe on? Does EM9300 spot repair, and work just like Varathane Ultimate?

Anyway, whenever you have a few moments

Thanks!
Adam

Hello Adam;

I've finished about 3 basses with EM9300 so far, and I like it. In most ways, it's similar to Varathane Ultimate, with some improvements. The process of using it is about the same; mixing, spraying, sanding, buffing, etc.

Differences:

EM9300 comes through in the can mixed at a thinner viscosity than VU. It's just right as it is for spraying by my technique of 13 psi. I haven't found a need to do any thinning. Right out of the can, it usually sprays well and flows out smoother than VU. I think VU is a thicker mix in the can, because it's optimized for brushing and rolling. Spraying VU is a little trickier to get it to flow out smooth.

I haven't tried brushing EM9300, but it should be okay. It's thinner than VU, so it may take more coats. And you have to be more careful not to get sags and runs.

EM9300 is a little bit slower drying than VU. I've been allowing an hour between coats and 48 hours for full cure before final level sanding and buffing. I've done between-coat level sanding after 2 hours and it was okay. The specs say it requires up to 7 days for full cure, but I've found that 2 days is enough, in my normal temp conditions.

Like VU, EM9300 can be left in the gun for a week. That's a big time saver, not having to clean the gun with every coat.

Fully cured, EM9300 is definitely harder and more scratch-resistant than VU. Not as hard as a 2K poly, but close. It's a little tougher to wet-sand and buff out than VU, but it will go to a higher gloss. But it flows out smoother, so it usually requires less level sanding. I'm still experimenting with the best buffing technique for it.

Target also sells two additives for use with EM9300. One is a Retarder, which will slow down the flow out and cure. The other is a Cross-Linker, which supposedly makes the final surface more scratch resistant. I bought some of each, and tried them in one experiment. It didn't go well. More testing is needed to see if either of them are worth it.

 

[chinjazz]

Hello Adam;

I've finished about 3 basses with EM9300 so far, and I like it. In most ways, it's similar to Varathane Ultimate, with some improvements. The process of using it is about the same; mixing, spraying, sanding, buffing, etc.

Differences:

EM9300 comes through in the can mixed at a thinner viscosity than VU. It's just right as it is for spraying by my technique of 13 psi. I haven't found a need to do any thinning. Right out of the can, it usually sprays well and flows out smoother than VU. I think VU is a thicker mix in the can, because it's optimized for brushing and rolling. Spraying VU is a little trickier to get it to flow out smooth.

I haven't tried brushing EM9300, but it should be okay. It's thinner than VU, so it may take more coats. And you have to be more careful not to get sags and runs.

EM9300 is a little bit slower drying than VU. I've been allowing an hour between coats and 48 hours for full cure before final level sanding and buffing. I've done between-coat level sanding after 2 hours and it was okay. The specs say it requires up to 7 days for full cure, but I've found that 2 days is enough, in my normal temp conditions.

Like VU, EM9300 can be left in the gun for a week. That's a big time saver, not having to clean the gun with every coat.

Fully cured, EM9300 is definitely harder and more scratch-resistant than VU. Not as hard as a 2K poly, but close. It's a little tougher to wet-sand and buff out than VU, but it will go to a higher gloss. But it flows out smoother, so it usually requires less level sanding. I'm still experimenting with the best buffing technique for it.

Target also sells two additives for use with EM9300. One is a Retarder, which will slow down the flow out and cure. The other is a Cross-Linker, which supposedly makes the final surface more scratch resistant. I bought some of each, and tried them in one experiment. It didn't go well. More testing is needed to see if either of them are worth it.

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the insightful detail. Definitely gives me a good perspective on what it’s like, as compared to VU. It’s been about a year since my last build which was more of a hand finished deal (osmo polyx), but this new build I want something more durable at least on the top where it’ll get most of the wear and tear.