New: Zoom B3n Multi-Effects

[andreas_flf]

I'll check the tuner mode, good idea.

So just curious - how does the B3n compare to other multis - the GT-10B, the Digitechs, the line6 helix, etc? I know some are much pricier, just wondering how people think it matches up.

I own a Digitech BP8 (with a real tube), two Line 6 POD X3. They all pale IMHO compared to the B3, let alone the B3n. The POD X3 offers more flexibility than the B3 (3 slots vs. 10), but sondwise the Zoom bass units B3 and B3n are way better. Sure, the PODs are excellent devices, but as a bassist there is nothing useful there. It is all designed for guitarists, and then guitarists, and then guitarists. The B3 and B3n on the other hand, they are dedicated to bass, Zoom working on such products since many years. In my experience this matters a lot. Both the B3 and B3n, the B3n even more so, are very mature bass effect units. Admitted, not all effects in these units are of the same quality, some (out of B3s 100) being admitted rather poor but many are really excellent. And please do not judge by listening to the factory preset patches, in particular on the B3, they are really mostly useless and very badly done. On the B3 when switching through them the strongest effect change is first of all the volume, nothing else, which means without careful tweaking, they can't be used and listened to at all. Best to throw them away right from the beginning. But carefully designed patches using the good effects make these units shine.

My B3n is brand new and I have basically no real experience with the B3n compared to my years of use of the B3. But from all my testing so far, I can say at least this: it is soundwise for sure at least as good as the B3. And the B3 has outperformed all the other units I own and have also used for years. I should sell all my other stuff, but it seems they are not sought after very much? BTW, I described my experience and views on this in more details in other posts (this thread #1368, #89) and you might like to read also discussions near #807, #662 of the thread "B3 as preamp Part 2").

Finally, and when I use the B3, I use it as a preamp. That makes quite a difference. It shines only then. Note, I used it first in my Trace Eliots effect loop, but was not particularly happy. Only in my current setup bypassing my TE preamp I am happy, very happy with my B3s (here the link to #1368 I am referring to)

Cheers,
Andreas flf

 

[CharlieC]

This thread was a lot to digest. I have a b3 and like it with the exception of the distortions, which I hate pretty much universally. Are the ones on the b3n any better?

Yes, much better!

 

[jimfist]

So I had a bit of time to mess around with the B3n, and I'm warming up to it (alone in my practice room anyway). I'll try it out with a band tomorrow.

I noticed a couple of weird things -

I started a patch in an empty location, and I had to delete things before the add button showed up. But it was already empty! So I had to choose delete on nothing. Wassup?

A couple of the default patches in the 2nd bank (4 and 6 I think) were wrong. The autowah one had no wah, instead a flanger. The octave down had no octaver. Does this mean I got a returned unit and somebody messed with the presets?

How do I update and get the latest patches and effects? I didn't have much time but I didn't see that in the manual.

Empty patches should be ready to go, just start adding effects in the slots. I'd guess that yes, someone had their hands on your B3n, and with AutoSave engaged, any changes to the patches will be automatically overwritten, which would explain why the factory presets seemed wrong. Not that it should matter because you do a full reset of the unit this way:

It's in the owner's manual.

For firmware updates and additions to all of the available effects/amps/cabs, you download GuitarLab software and use it to perform those functions. It will tell you if a new firmware is available, and also will highlight "NEW" stuff for the B3n. I believe they added a couple items along with the Acoustic bass amp/cab, but that's about it IIRC.

 

[andreas_flf]

So I had a bit of time to mess around with the B3n, and I'm warming up to it (alone in my practice room anyway). I'll try it out with a band tomorrow.

I noticed a couple of weird things -

I started a patch in an empty location, and I had to delete things before the add button showed up. But it was already empty! So I had to choose delete on nothing. Wassup?

snip

Indeed, this confused me first as well. This is particularly confusing, if one reads first the manual, since that states you should start with ADD. I do basically not use ADD at all. Instead I simply make sure I see that part of the signal chain where I wish to insert something. Then I simply select in the wanted slot, i.e. slot 1, 2, or 3, whatever I want. No need to use the ADD command. I believe ADD is only useful when you wish to actually add something to an existing patch at a particular location (and when ADD is really shown, sic).

I also noticed that the ADD command was often not showing, while I had actually not yet used up all 7 slots. I'd say clearly a bug in the software. But fortunately this bug is not relevant, since in that situation you can still use above technique to add what you want. And it does not matter much where you insert an additional effect, using the CHAIN command you can easily move the new effect afterwards precisely where you want it. That worked for me at least always.

Enjoy!

Andreas flf

 

[andreas_flf]

I have solved the whine problem in my pedalboard but the Diago isolator I found only supports 100mA. Details in my signature. I think given that your MS60b probably wants more than 100mA you're stuck with a big fat expensive isolator from voodoo or one-spot, or a couple of wall warts.

Yes, 100 mA is not sufficient.

 

[andreas_flf]

So I had a bit of time to mess around with the B3n, and I'm warming up to it (alone in my practice room anyway). I'll try it out with a band tomorrow.

I noticed a couple of weird things -

snip

How do I update and get the latest patches and effects? I didn't have much time but I didn't see that in the manual.

Connect the powered B3n with a USB cable to your computer. Launch application "ZOOM Guitar Lab", which you can download for free from the Invalid Link Removed. Anything new shows up automatically and can easily be installed.

Enjoy!

 

[CharlieC]

Indeed, this confused me first as well. This is particularly confusing, if one reads first the manual, since that states you should start with ADD. I do basically not use ADD at all. Instead I simply make sure I see that part of the signal chain where I wish to insert something. Then I simply select in the wanted slot, i.e. slot 1, 2, or 3, whatever I want. No need to use the ADD command. I believe ADD is only useful when you wish to actually add something to an existing patch at a particular location (and when ADD is really shown, sic).

I also noticed that the ADD command was often not showing, while I had actually not yet used up all 7 slots. I'd say clearly a bug in the software. But fortunately this bug is not relevant, since in that situation you can still use above technique to add what you want. And it does not matter much where you insert an additional effect, using the CHAIN command you can easily move the new effect afterwards precisely where you want it. That worked for me at least always.

Enjoy!

Andreas flf

In the area of preset patches labeled "Empty", Zoom has (for better or worse) pre-loaded the 7 effect slots with 7 yet-unselected effects which exist as "placeholders." This is why the "Add" option is not available and is not a bug in the software. This can be proven by the deletion of one of those "placeholders" in the chain. Delete at least one and the "Add" will appear, as then less than 7 slots are in use.

I myself did not appreciate this and have since created my own truly "Empty" patches, where I "Add" only the quantity of effect slots of my choosing and with no hidden placeholders.

Cheers!

 

[jimfist]

+1 @CharlieC beat me to it!

 

[CharlieC]

^^^

Other things worth mentioning about the default "Empty" patches are:

1. Even though they are devoid of effects, they still are governed by both Patch + Master "Level" values

2. I question possible signal degradation from the unused "placeholders" in the effect chain​

Perhaps the above are reasons behind the recent observations of signal disparity between Tuner Bypass mode and "Empty" patches?

Cheers!

 

[Stu_Bass]

So I had a bit of time to mess around with the B3n, and I'm warming up to it (alone in my practice room anyway). I'll try it out with a band tomorrow.

I noticed a couple of weird things -

I started a patch in an empty location, and I had to delete things before the add button showed up. But it was already empty! So I had to choose delete on nothing. Wassup?

A couple of the default patches in the 2nd bank (4 and 6 I think) were wrong. The autowah one had no wah, instead a flanger. The octave down had no octaver. Does this mean I got a returned unit and somebody messed with the presets?

How do I update and get the latest patches and effects? I didn't have much time but I didn't see that in the manual.

In the area of preset patches labeled "Empty", Zoom has (for better or worse) pre-loaded the 7 effect slots with 7 yet-unselected effects which exist as "placeholders." This is why the "Add" option is not available and is not a bug in the software. This can be proven by the deletion of one of those "placeholders" in the chain. Delete at least one and the "Add" will appear, as then less than 7 slots are in use.

I myself did not appreciate this and have since created my own truly "Empty" patches, where I "Add" only the quantity of effect slots of my choosing and with no hidden placeholders.

Cheers!

Yes. Create a truly empty patch and copy it to all of your factory empty patches. This is also useful as a quick bypass for comparison of effects and levels when creating patches

 

[SirMjac28]

Did it come?!?!

Yes it arrived I spent twenty minutes trying to figure out why I had no sound? it turns out I had the amps volume turn all the way off I played two notes then the volume went out again? I have to tear everything apart to see what's up.

 

[jimfist]

Did an outdoor gig last night with the B3n, second gig using it, and it was a pleasure. Since I had my Wal bass for this show, I decided to shut off the cab modeling (8x10 SVT). The Wal is a real treat to play, and it also is one of the few basses I've ever owned that sounds really great purely direct. I really can't say that about most - if any - of my other basses, which seem to need a bit of tone shaping help. Amp and cab modeling tend to HELP those other basses get over the hump to find that sweet spot. Not so with the Wal...naturally. ;-)

OK, so without the cab modeling, the SVT amp model was exposed to have far too much gain. After a few tweaks, had a really nice bass tone, with a hint of valve OD. When I use the Wal, I may just wind up using the B3n for effects-only rather than the full-on amp/cab modeling + effects, which really limits the number of special effects that can be put in a single patch. Problem is that I don't use my Wal bass for most gigs...but that may change.

New found appreciation for keeping the bass tone "pure", as we've discussed a bit in this thread. The B3n has presented no problems for me in that respect. Looks like the old B3 will be on permanent back-up duty from now on...and it's served me well.

 

[smeet]

[QUOT="jimfist, post: 20076964, member: 189591"]
OK, so without the cab modeling, the SVT amp model was exposed to have far too much gain. After a few tweaks, had a really nice bass tone, with a hint of valve OD. [/QUOTE]
I noticed this also. The SVT model is really dark compared to the real thing, and really gainy. What tweaks did you do to bring down the gain? Do I need to somehow bring down the volume before and boost it after the amp?

 

[VonSledgehammer]

I've noticed the SVT is pretty gainy as well - not being that familiar with the real thing, I figured that's what they sound like, and I'm currently digging a dirtier tone anyway, so I'm OK with it. If I really want clean (e.g., slapping), I just don't use that sim.

I've done a few gigs and rehearsals so far with my B3n. I notice I need far fewer patches, mostly because with 7 slots, I can add in distortion, octaver, etc as stomp effects, and I thus only have a few other custom patches for special needs. The bonus here is that I spend far less time gain-staging, volume matching, and making tweaks consistent across patches. E.g., I might decide that from now on I am slightly lowering my compression threshold for my default patches, so fewer patches to update with that setting is good.

Re: empty effects, I'm attempting to write some better patch editor software, so I'm pretty familiar with the patch file data structure at this point. What I have seen so far is that there is always a minimum of 3 effects in a patch (and max 7 of course), even when empty. Possibly because the software expects some data so it knows what to display for the currently visible patches in the sliding "window". The empty patch number is 1 in the data. Eventually I will allow for batch effect parameter tweaks, e.g., change the output level to 90 for all BlackOpt instances. But I'm still working on the basics. There is a lot of manual labour involved, unfortunately, as all data is stored directly as bytes (no JSON or XML) and data structures vary wildly across different effect parameters. There is also nothing to tell me what any of the bytes mean, e.g., what number equals what effect. But at this point 90% of it is sorted out.

Also, a new release of ZOOM Guitar Lab today! However, the excitement was short lived - no new features, only a bug fix for a bug I never saw. And why the software doesn't auto-update I don't know...

 

[Stu_Bass]

I've noticed the SVT is pretty gainy as well - not being that familiar with the real thing, I figured that's what they sound like, and I'm currently digging a dirtier tone anyway, so I'm OK with it. If I really want clean (e.g., slapping), I just don't use that sim.

I've done a few gigs and rehearsals so far with my B3n. I notice I need far fewer patches, mostly because with 7 slots, I can add in distortion, octaver, etc as stomp effects, and I thus only have a few other custom patches for special needs. The bonus here is that I spend far less time gain-staging, volume matching, and making tweaks consistent across patches. E.g., I might decide that from now on I am slightly lowering my compression threshold for my default patches, so fewer patches to update with that setting is good.

Re: empty effects, I'm attempting to write some better patch editor software, so I'm pretty familiar with the patch file data structure at this point. What I have seen so far is that there is always a minimum of 3 effects in a patch (and max 7 of course), even when empty. Possibly because the software expects some data so it knows what to display for the currently visible patches in the sliding "window". The empty patch number is 1 in the data. Eventually I will allow for batch effect parameter tweaks, e.g., change the output level to 90 for all BlackOpt instances. But I'm still working on the basics. There is a lot of manual labour involved, unfortunately, as all data is stored directly as bytes (no JSON or XML) and data structures vary wildly across different effect parameters. There is also nothing to tell me what any of the bytes mean, e.g., what number equals what effect. But at this point 90% of it is sorted out.

Also, a new release of ZOOM Guitar Lab today! However, the excitement was short lived - no new features, only a bug fix for a bug I never saw. And why the software doesn't auto-update I don't know...

Thanks for your time and effort!

 

[VonSledgehammer]

Oops, just double-checked and my SVT gain was somehow at 30! So I do have some cleaner tone if I wish. Would be very curious to know what everyone's preferred SVT settings are.

Also, quick derail - thinking of getting a Barefaced BIG TWIN II to use with my B3n and Carvin HD3000 - does that power amp sound like a good match? (Using Fearless F112 at the moment, not loud enough for current gigs).

 

[Stu_Bass]

Oops, just double-checked and my SVT gain was somehow at 30! So I do have some cleaner tone if I wish. Would be very curious to know what everyone's preferred SVT settings are.

Also, quick derail - thinking of getting a Barefaced BIG TWIN II to use with my B3n and Carvin HD3000 - does that power amp sound like a good match? (Using Fearless F112 at the moment, not loud enough for current gigs).

I have driven my two Big Baby II Gen 3's with a Crest ST-2000 (2400 watts) It's redonculously loud (as in painful in a confined environment) so I would think that combination would make your pant legs flap! Or add a second F112? Or keep the F112 and add the Big Twin

 

[jimfist]

Oops, just double-checked and my SVT gain was somehow at 30! So I do have some cleaner tone if I wish. Would be very curious to know what everyone's preferred SVT settings are.

My Gain setting for the SVT was also at 30. Backed it down about 5 notches into the low/mid 20s and all was well.

@smeet, the amp model has a GAIN parameter, so this is where all of the overdrive lives. You lower the Gain and boost the VOL parameter to get things back up to level. As always, when creating patches, you should be going back and forth comparing your tone creations with BYPASS to make sure you're not too far over or under nominal un-effected level. I prefer to do this balancing on a slot-by-slot basis before resorting to the patch's overall volume parameter, but either way should work.

My guess is that the SVT model in the ZOOM is based on the old "Blueline" SVT from the early 1970s. I never owned one, but played on them a few times and they sounded great, really fat, due to the tube overdrive/saturation that was prevalent in the design. I owned an SVT Classic (purchased in 1997) and it seemed much cleaner at the front end by comparison, but could easily get into overdrive just by goosing the input gain and backing off the master volume.

 

[andreas_flf]

In the area of preset patches labeled "Empty", Zoom has (for better or worse) pre-loaded the 7 effect slots with 7 yet-unselected effects which exist as "placeholders." This is why the "Add" option is not available and is not a bug in the software. This can be proven by the deletion of one of those "placeholders" in the chain. Delete at least one and the "Add" will appear, as then less than 7 slots are in use.

I myself did not appreciate this and have since created my own truly "Empty" patches, where I "Add" only the quantity of effect slots of my choosing and with no hidden placeholders.

Cheers!

You are right Charlie (as usual ). It is indeed not a bug given your explanation. I was working with the prdefined EMPTY patches, which are as you say not really empty. A subtle, but not unimportant nuance.

I will do the same and in the future also work from truly empty patches.

Cheers, Andreas flf

 

[andreas_flf]

snip

Re: empty effects, I'm attempting to write some better patch editor software, snip ...

How and for what platform do you plan to do this. I would like to shortcut with you on this, being myself also a programmer. Ok?