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NHL PLayoffs 2009

#381
MJ5150 said:
ESPN.com is reporting that Havlat and Khabibulin are both out for the next game. What a bummer.
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Maybe that will even things up for Datsuyk being out the last game.

I haven't seen the Kronwall hit, but I sure hope he didn't cheap shot the guy. The NHL did not discipline him further than the ejection, but from what I gather, the NHL has been real inconsistent with their playoff discipline.

-Mike
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The hit was completely legal. I watched it several times and Kronwall never left his feet until after he made contact with Havlat. Also, the puck was underneath Havlat when he was hit. IMO he knew where it was but was wanting to play it off the boards so he was trying to gather it with his skate but Kronwall was right there. As far as the elbow, Havlat's head was down looking at the puck so Kronwall's elsbow didn't have to come up to hit him in the head. It was Havlat's head that actually hit Kronwall's elbow since he was actually laying his shoulder into Havlat.
 
#383
capnsandwich said:
Maybe that will even things up for Datsuyk being out the last game.



The hit was completely legal. I watched it several times and Kronwall never left his feet until after he made contact with Havlat. Also, the puck was underneath Havlat when he was hit. IMO he knew where it was but was wanting to play it off the boards so he was trying to gather it with his skate but Kronwall was right there. As far as the elbow, Havlat's head was down looking at the puck so Kronwall's elsbow didn't have to come up to hit him in the head. It was Havlat's head that actually hit Kronwall's elbow since he was actually laying his shoulder into Havlat.
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After having watched the hit many MANY times, I've concluded it was not a legal hit. Because it was a blow to the head with the elbow/forearm and he followed through with his forearm (which Kronwall does on most of his big hits. Always a shot to the head with an elbow and always leaves his feet). Sure his head was down, which means Kronwall should have lowered his shoulder.

And why is it interference? Because Havlat DID NOT touch the puck, Kronwall used his FREE HAND (rule 56.1 in the NHL rulebook) to deliver the blow, and Havlat was unsuspecting of the hit because his head was down and he did not have possession of the puck(under the new rules you can't deliver those hits). The reason it was a major was because of the severity of the injury to Havlat.
 
#386
MJ5150 said:
Why did Kronwall lay out Havlat if he didn't have the puck and had his head down?

-Mike
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The way I see it, there are 2 reasons. 1, he thought Havlat was going to get control of the puck just as he hit him, which was not the case on the play (if he waited another second or two for Havlat to touch the puck we wouldn't be having this discussion). 2, he's a dirty player and was headhunting one of the 'hawks best players.

I agree that it is a big boy's game (I've been the recipient of a fair share of hits myself. Heck I've got a huge welt on my leg from blocking a shot playing ball hockey the other day). Unfortunately the rules in the game have changed, and something which would not have been a penalty pre-lockout is now an illegal hit and a penalty.

There was a late hit in game 6 of Blackhawks vs Canucks, Ladd on Kesler. The refs didn't call it. After the game? They actually apologized for not making that call and that they will be making that call in the future. What happens? Similar type of play, except that Havlat gets knocked out (all Kesler got was a bloody nose). Penalty gets called.
 
#387
heroincredible said:
And why is it interference? Because Havlat DID NOT touch the puck, Kronwall used his FREE HAND (rule 56.1 in the NHL rulebook) to deliver the blow, and Havlat was unsuspecting of the hit because his head was down and he did not have possession of the puck(under the new rules you can't deliver those hits). The reason it was a major was because of the severity of the injury to Havlat.
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Bah, the hit is still debatable.At the most, he should have gotten a normal interference call. A 5-minut major was ridicules.

We get to analyze every detail of the hit via replay, the refs had the make the call on the fly. It was a hard hit, but there was nothing malicious about it, and there wasn't an intent to injure.

The good news is the call had no real impact on the games outcome.
 
#389
Bad Brains said:
Kronwall is not a dirty player. He plays a physical game, but it isn't dirty.

Plus if he was going to risk the integrity of the Red Wings organization by headhunting, he wouldn't waste it on someone like Havlat.
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I wasn't saying he was (but I can see how it may have been implied in my original post). There are 2 possible options ;) I think it's the first one I listed, where he hit Havlat just a little bit too soon before Havlat touching the puck. I don't watch the Red Wings often enough to determine whether any of their players are dirty or not based on one play or bad quality youtube videos.
 
#390
heroincredible said:
After having watched the hit many MANY times, I've concluded it was not a legal hit. Because it was a blow to the head with the elbow/forearm and he followed through with his forearm (which Kronwall does on most of his big hits. Always a shot to the head with an elbow and always leaves his feet). Sure his head was down, which means Kronwall should have lowered his shoulder.

And why is it interference? Because Havlat DID NOT touch the puck, Kronwall used his FREE HAND (rule 56.1 in the NHL rulebook) to deliver the blow, and Havlat was unsuspecting of the hit because his head was down and he did not have possession of the puck(under the new rules you can't deliver those hits). The reason it was a major was because of the severity of the injury to Havlat.
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You can look at every little detail of why it looks illegal but if you're in a playoff situation and you see the puck underneath an opposing player then it looks like he's playing the puck. IMO, he's not trying to find it. He's waiting for it to bounce of the boards so he can can play it with his skate. You can argue that Kronwall was head hunting but his Havlat's head was down looking at the puck so Kronwall's elbow didn't have to come up very much to get him in the head. Also, he left his feet AFTER he made contact, which is only natural since the energy in both moving objects (Kronwall and Havlat) has to go somewhere, so it went up, lifting Kronwall off the ice. It was an uncalled for penalty that was influenced by the hometown fans, IMO of course.


All this is debatable and Kronwall received a 5 min. major and game misconduct but in the spirit of the playoffs (where some guys are getting away with murder) that should not have been a game misconduct. Call me a typical biased, loud-mouthed Red Wings fan but I know I'm not alone in my conclusion of what I saw.
 
#391
capnsandwich said:
You can look at every little detail of why it looks illegal but if you're in a playoff situation and you see the puck underneath an opposing player then it looks like he's playing the puck. IMO, he's not trying to find it. He's waiting for it to bounce of the boards so he can can play it with his skate. You can argue that Kronwall was head hunting but his Havlat's head was down looking at the puck so Kronwall's elbow didn't have to come up very much to get him in the head. Also, he left his feet AFTER he made contact, which is only natural since the energy in both moving objects (Kronwall and Havlat) has to go somewhere, so it went up, lifting Kronwall off the ice. It was an uncalled for penalty that was influenced by the hometown fans, IMO of course.


All this is debatable and Kronwall received a 5 min. major and game misconduct but in the spirit of the playoffs (where some guys are getting away with murder) that should not have been a game misconduct. Call me a typical biased, loud-mouthed Red Wings fan but I know I'm not alone in my conclusion of what I saw.
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NHL rulebook states that on any 5-minute major penalty (that is not fighting), there is an automatic game misconduct. 5 minutes should have been more than enough, but unfortunately that's the rule. As for the Red Wings fan, one of my good friends is a Red Wings fan and he thinks Kronwall should have been suspended LOL. Just as I'm sure there are plenty of Blackhawks fans who think it shouldn't have been a penalty. Just gives us something to talk about, not to mention fuel the rivalry ;)

I think after this playoff season is over that is it for me and NHL hockey. The officiating is a farce and instead of talking about the quality of hockey being played I find myself *****ing more and more about the refs.
 
#392
heroincredible said:
After having watched the hit many MANY times, I've concluded it was not a legal hit. Because it was a blow to the head with the elbow/forearm and he followed through with his forearm (which Kronwall does on most of his big hits. Always a shot to the head with an elbow and always leaves his feet). Sure his head was down, which means Kronwall should have lowered his shoulder.

And why is it interference? Because Havlat DID NOT touch the puck, Kronwall used his FREE HAND (rule 56.1 in the NHL rulebook) to deliver the blow, and Havlat was unsuspecting of the hit because his head was down and he did not have possession of the puck(under the new rules you can't deliver those hits). The reason it was a major was because of the severity of the injury to Havlat.
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Here is the Vs. feed

Reading this description I can think of about a dozen hits that I've seen similar to this that weren't even called. This one in particular. Gagne is turning up the boards...has his body lowered and Kovalev elbows him in the head. Had Gagne had his center of gravity a little higher, it would have been a clean hit. In my mind, the reality of that situation is that Kovalev got away with an dirty play...an elbow to the head.

You watch the game...you witness it happen, you ask yourself why the ref hasn't coughed the whistle up yet...it's perplexing but it is the nature of the sport.

We could probably fill this thread to the max with debate about what will get called and what won't get called. A lot of calls are easy for us to make because we have video replay..we are 3000 miles away in our arm chairs, but refs are on the ice...they see more than we see, sometimes they see nothing at all. Refs also take into account the reps of teams and of the particular players. These things tend to balance themselves out too

Games are close and teams are so evenly matched that I'd hate to be a ref for the NHL these days. This is no defense to the Zebras...there are good ones and there are bad ones (*cough* Van Massenhoven *cough*). The NHL is still experiencing post lockout growing pains....hopefully they get em worked out.
 
#394
Clearly a clean hit, Havelet did touch the puck unfortunately he misplayed it. It was tangled up in his skates. Kromwell did not lead with his free hand. He pushed off AFTER the hit to get off of Havalet with his free hand. I do hope Havalet is OK, but that was not a 5 minute major. I also think the fact that Kromwell wasn't suspended says volumes about it. If the league clearly thought it was a dirty hit their is no way Kromwell would be skating today. Havalet made a huge mistake in not looking up. Anyone whose played the game will tell you NEVER go into the boards with your head down. While the bad-call did not decide the game, it certainly decided the first period. The Wings played penalty kill for over 11 minutes of the first. The Zebras definitely had an influence on the outcome.
 
#395
have any of you ever officiated a game before? Its not like they have the same view of the play as the rest of us. Its tough work trying to avoid getting in the way and making the necessary calls. They are doing the best they can with the structure of the rules and the nature of their job. The hit looks a bit dirty at first glance, and the energy of the hit + the knockout = something that looks like it might be headhunting, thus the penalty. I don't think it is, but the refs must go on their initial viewing of the play, in which case i would probably have called a major too.
 
#396
warwick.hoy said:
Here is the Vs. feed

Reading this description I can think of about a dozen hits that I've seen similar to this that weren't even called. This one in particular. Gagne is turning up the boards...has his body lowered and Kovalev elbows him in the head. Had Gagne had his center of gravity a little higher, it would have been a clean hit. In my mind, the reality of that situation is that Kovalev got away with an dirty play...an elbow to the head.
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That play has no where near the same energy as the current hit in question. But you are right, it is a much dirtier play. The reason it wasn't called is because it doesn't draw the same attention as kromwall steamrolling havlat. divided attention...
 
#397
stevetx19 said:
That play has no where near the same energy as the current hit in question. But you are right, it is a much dirtier play. The reason it wasn't called is because it doesn't draw the same attention as kromwall steamrolling havlat. divided attention...
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For sure, but considering Gagne's concussion problems I don't like that hit.

I also agree with burke's mentioning that it is a huge mistake to come up the boards with your head down.
 
#400
No Lidstrom, No Datsyuk, No Draper, No problem. Osgood and Hossa take care of the Hawks. In the meanwhile the Hawks played for revenge, someone should have told them their was a hockey game today. I'm more then willing to choke it up to youth and inexperience. But when the opposing team starts talking about "getting physical" against the Wings that's usually right where the Wings want them.
 

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