Not Loud Enough?

[Panek]

Friends, I have a question. Some may see it as a stupid question, but I'm not a troll and I really genuinely want to ask.

I'm researching heads to go with my Hartke 410TP. My plan is to get a second cab, exactly the same, and stack them. I love that Hartke sound. I just do. Think of Chris Squire playing with Black Sabbath (instead of Geezer). I like to have a punchy sound, with lots of presence, highs and high mids, yet still with enough bottom end to make the ground and walls shake. You know? So years ago (I'm old, and getting back into playing after a couple of decades), I used an Acoustic 450 head with a Sunn cabinet, I think it was a 2x12 cabinet. A few years later, I used the same head with my single Hartke 410TP cab, and I played a Ric 4003 with it. Loved it! The Acoustic 450 into my 8ohm Hartke 410 yielded something around the neighborhood of 100 watts, I think. I think. We did Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Motorhead, and I never had a problem with having enough firepower to keep up with a Marshall 100 watt guitar stack. Even in fair sized clubs with fair sized stages.

But now, flash forward many years. And in my research, I've seen countless reviews and opinions stating that a 200 - 300 watt bass rig is "okay for small venues" but not enough head room for much else. What?? :-D I'm thinking of either a Hartke HA2500 (250 watts into 4ohms), or else an Ampeg SVT Micro VR (200 watts into 4 ohms, I believe). But either of these heads with my Hartke stack would not be enough? 200 - 250 watts is "not enough"? How can this be? Granted, I'm old, and things have changed - a LOT - but in my entire life I never knew any guitar or bass player who had anything more than a 100 watt rig. And those 100 watt rigs were more than enough to cause me to have to wear hearing aids now, in my dotage. (I know. I never wore ear plugs. I was stupid.) Be that as it may. Now I see 500, 800 even 1000 watt amps! A thousand watts?? Good grief, where would you even use that, the 02 Arena? (Lol)

So please, share some opinions if you would. Is a 200 - 250 watt rig powered by either of the heads I mentioned (and two Hartke 410s) something that folks would laugh at? Has anyone used either of those heads? What were your experiences with them?

Thanks all! Mark...

View attachment 3699979

Just get a Acoustic 450 again and you're set.

I gigged a 370 for several years without any problems. It's still my backup amp, as I switched over to a 1975 Traynor Mono Block B a couple of years ago because it has a Output Volume knob.

 

[frankie5string]

Did you say you had a transporter cab? They had the budget Hartke drivers - and they lack a bit of sensitivity. However, the TP cabs aren't made anymore, so if you buy another, and you want full aluminum cones, you'll have to go with a 410xl. It's got a wider range and is actually a bit crisper.

So yes, you can absolutely gig with something like the HA3500 and one 410xl or the 410xl plus your 410TP. It will be very loud. What it won't be, though, is bassy. It'll have a very midrangey sound that will make the rig "feel" louder. You can get a lot more volume out of that system from the voicing of those cabinets.

Absolutely.

 

[FugaziBomb]

boosting low end significantly for that room rumbling sensation which chews through a lot of power.

This all the way. My originals band is very hip hop / edm leaning and I need a ton of power to compete with what the house music is bumping between our sets. I have two 18" subs that I power with a 450w per side amp IN ADDITION to my 210. I don't always use both subs, but I have in the past. Now the next night I might be playing with a top 40 cover band or something like that and the 210 is all I need. It really depends on what you are trying to achieve

 

[iriegnome]

IMHO, more speaker is more important than more watts. Just sayin

 

[40Hz]

Loud is relative. You need to understand the efficiency of your speakers. And the size and liveness of the venue. And whether or not you have PA support. Anyone saying things like "200 watts is not enough" is oversimplifying the situation. They may have experience in their situation where their statements are true for them, but using it as general advice is not necessarily a good idea.

^This.

Make the call based on the actual sound and situation and not just on the specs.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Listen, don't anyone fool you...watts are measured the same way now as when they were 70 years ago. The same 170 or so watts that was enough for you years ago will be enough for you now. I gig with a Micro VR and an 8 ohm 210 on a pretty regular basis and it's certainly loud enough for me on most of my gigs without PA support, and on the gigs it's not, we have PA support. And I've tried into an 810 many times, and it will get loud enough to get me fired from pretty much every gig I've ever done, including the hard rock and metal gigs I did back in the day. I might suggest the PF350 for you over the Micro VR as it costs, sounds and works the same but has 350w at 4 ohms. But yeah, you certainly don't need 1000w to do what you do!

Spot on. I use 210s at about 500 watts on most gigs, but I don’t have cranked by any stretch of the imagination. Now, playing outside I like a little more sock to make up for the lack of acoustical enhancements from room characteristics.

 

[Pings Bass]

Welcome back to bass world. I too took a couple decades off to discover much has changed in Bassland, but much has stayed there same. Watts have stayed the same, but the production of them has gotten cheaper, lighter and smaller.

Coincidentally, stage monitoring has gotten better, particularly the in-ear kind. Also better: amp modeling. Between those two advances, you can effectively deliver big amp sound without having to haul a big amp. Food for thought.

Others have touched on it, but just to reinforce that you have to think about increasing power as an exponential curve, not linear. Which means the difference in acoustic output between 100 Watts and 200 can be thought of as roughly the same difference as 200 to 400, 400 to 800, 800 to 1600, etc. So a 1000 watt amp is really only incrementally louder than a 100 watt amp, despite its exponentially higher wattage.

Oh, anther thing that's changed is the availability of info to slay myths of yore. I have found that to be wonderful and enlightening. TalkBass is a font of good info.

Best wishes on your return to the stage!

 

[bucephylus]

Friends, I have a question. Some may see it as a stupid question, but I'm not a troll and I really genuinely want to ask.

I'm researching heads to go with my Hartke 410TP. My plan is to get a second cab, exactly the same, and stack them. I love that Hartke sound. I just do. Think of Chris Squire playing with Black Sabbath (instead of Geezer). I like to have a punchy sound, with lots of presence, highs and high mids, yet still with enough bottom end to make the ground and walls shake. You know? So years ago (I'm old, and getting back into playing after a couple of decades), I used an Acoustic 450 head with a Sunn cabinet, I think it was a 2x12 cabinet. A few years later, I used the same head with my single Hartke 410TP cab, and I played a Ric 4003 with it. Loved it! The Acoustic 450 into my 8ohm Hartke 410 yielded something around the neighborhood of 100 watts, I think. I think. We did Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Motorhead, and I never had a problem with having enough firepower to keep up with a Marshall 100 watt guitar stack. Even in fair sized clubs with fair sized stages.

But now, flash forward many years. And in my research, I've seen countless reviews and opinions stating that a 200 - 300 watt bass rig is "okay for small venues" but not enough head room for much else. What?? :-D I'm thinking of either a Hartke HA2500 (250 watts into 4ohms), or else an Ampeg SVT Micro VR (200 watts into 4 ohms, I believe). But either of these heads with my Hartke stack would not be enough? 200 - 250 watts is "not enough"? How can this be? Granted, I'm old, and things have changed - a LOT - but in my entire life I never knew any guitar or bass player who had anything more than a 100 watt rig. And those 100 watt rigs were more than enough to cause me to have to wear hearing aids now, in my dotage. (I know. I never wore ear plugs. I was stupid.) Be that as it may. Now I see 500, 800 even 1000 watt amps! A thousand watts?? Good grief, where would you even use that, the 02 Arena? (Lol)

So please, share some opinions if you would. Is a 200 - 250 watt rig powered by either of the heads I mentioned (and two Hartke 410s) something that folks would laugh at? Has anyone used either of those heads? What were your experiences with them?

Thanks all! Mark...

View attachment 3699979

First, the main thing is your playing, not the amp. That hasn’t changed. Only fools will laugh at an excellent player with an amp they may not respect.

Second, much progress has been made in bass amplification in the last 20 years. The advent of high powered Class D modules has really opened things up. Bass particularly benefits from more power, and the important aspect is better note definition more than more volume.

Yes, you are correct that the amps we used to use were loud enough. I too gigged a 410TP with various amps, including a 3500, back in the day. I always liked that cab. Not quite as much bass as the XL, but more reasonable schlep.

Many folks still prefer all tube designs, and it is impractical to get those much above 300W or 400W at the top side. They are more than loud enough.

Can’t comment on your initial choice of amps here, because I haven’t gigged them. But I would be surprised if they weren’t pretty loud. That said, there are a lot of other fish in the sea these days. One of the better values is the Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 in the used listings, which though not in production is still well supported, is dirt cheap for what it does, and kicks like a mule. Also, it is small. Anyhow, best of luck. There is much to discover.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

Too many people waste power in frequencies too low to do anything except rob power where it would be better spent, and strain drivers.

For SS heads, around 500 is a good starting point to keep up with loud guitars and a loud drummer. Because you will have a stack of 410s, 350~500 should be plenty if the 410 has efficient drivers. There are folks who use the Mesa Walkabout head (at 4 ohms is about 350 watts) into the Berg’ NV610, with reports that’s it’s plenty loud for everything.

Now the critical part- use an HPF and remember that mids are your friend.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

...So a 1000 watt amp is really only incrementally louder than a 100 watt amp, despite its exponentially higher wattage....

A 1000 watt amp will be perceived twice as loud as a 100 watt amp.

Each time you double watts, you get an additional 3dB in perceived volume. (3dB being about the smallest increment where the average listener can easily tell it’s an increase)

100 starting point.
100>>200 is +3dB
200>>400 is +3dB
400>>800 is +3dB
800>>1000 is +1dB
That’s a total of +10dB, which according to the log scale, is double the value of the starting point.

So again, it takes 10X the power to be perceived as twice as loud. A 1000 watt amp will be perceived twice as loud as a 100 watt amp.

Doubling drivers also adds 3dB in perceived volume with the added benefit of coupling in the lower frequencies, so doubling drivers not only adds volume, adds some additional to the bass content too. That’s why 410s the ‘fridge, and the old SWR Henry the 8th always have plenty of low end on tap. All that coupling adds up.

 

[Pings Bass]

A 1000 watt amp will be perceived twice as loud as a 100 watt amp.

Each time you double watts, you get an additional 3dB in perceived volume. (3dB being about the smallest increment where the average listener can easily tell it’s an increase)

100 starting point.
100>>200 is +3dB
200>>400 is +3dB
400>>800 is +3dB
800>>1000 is +1dB
That’s a total of +10dB, which according to the log scale, is double the value of the starting point.

So again, it takes 10X the power to be perceived as twice as loud. A 1000 watt amp will be perceived twice as loud as a 100 watt amp.

Doubling drivers also adds 3dB in perceived volume with the added benefit of coupling in the lower frequencies, so doubling drivers not only adds volume, adds some additional to the bass content too. That’s why 410s the ‘fridge, and the old SWR Henry the 8th always have plenty of low end on tap. All that coupling adds up.

We should be careful not to confuse loudness (aka sound pressure level, measured in dB) with acoustic energy (also measured in dB).

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Friends, I have a question. Some may see it as a stupid question, but I'm not a troll and I really genuinely want to ask.

I'm researching heads to go with my Hartke 410TP. My plan is to get a second cab, exactly the same, and stack them. I love that Hartke sound. I just do. Think of Chris Squire playing with Black Sabbath (instead of Geezer). I like to have a punchy sound, with lots of presence, highs and high mids, yet still with enough bottom end to make the ground and walls shake. You know? So years ago (I'm old, and getting back into playing after a couple of decades), I used an Acoustic 450 head with a Sunn cabinet, I think it was a 2x12 cabinet. A few years later, I used the same head with my single Hartke 410TP cab, and I played a Ric 4003 with it. Loved it! The Acoustic 450 into my 8ohm Hartke 410 yielded something around the neighborhood of 100 watts, I think. I think. We did Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Motorhead, and I never had a problem with having enough firepower to keep up with a Marshall 100 watt guitar stack. Even in fair sized clubs with fair sized stages.

But now, flash forward many years. And in my research, I've seen countless reviews and opinions stating that a 200 - 300 watt bass rig is "okay for small venues" but not enough head room for much else. What?? :-D I'm thinking of either a Hartke HA2500 (250 watts into 4ohms), or else an Ampeg SVT Micro VR (200 watts into 4 ohms, I believe). But either of these heads with my Hartke stack would not be enough? 200 - 250 watts is "not enough"? How can this be? Granted, I'm old, and things have changed - a LOT - but in my entire life I never knew any guitar or bass player who had anything more than a 100 watt rig. And those 100 watt rigs were more than enough to cause me to have to wear hearing aids now, in my dotage. (I know. I never wore ear plugs. I was stupid.) Be that as it may. Now I see 500, 800 even 1000 watt amps! A thousand watts?? Good grief, where would you even use that, the 02 Arena? (Lol)

So please, share some opinions if you would. Is a 200 - 250 watt rig powered by either of the heads I mentioned (and two Hartke 410s) something that folks would laugh at? Has anyone used either of those heads? What were your experiences with them?

Thanks all! Mark...

View attachment 3699979

The micro is a great amp, but it is a little small. Even with a nice big cabinet. You'll find yourself cranking the gain up too much to compensate. Check out the pf500 or 800. They're great.

 

[oldskoolskatedad]

I ran a Hartke HA3500 into 2 8ohm 4x10s and it was just enough to cut it, the band I played with was unbelievably loud though. I've been back at it for the past few years and usually use a 900w head into a 6x10 but I've been using a single 1x15 Fender bassman neo at practice and I really think it could probably be more than enough for small to medium gigs, it's also under 40lbs and the head weighs next to nothing, the heaviest thing I cart back and forth to practice is probably the pedalboard. I can easily over power the guitar player using a 4x12 and not have to go past 10oclock, I'm really considering getting a second cab and have 2 fully fledged monster rigs, that I won't feel bad taking out of the house!
There's definitely easier ways to get gig level volume. Lower wattage into more speakers is a bit of a compromise on both sides of the spectrum. More wattage through more efficient cabs can get you more with physically less.
View attachment 3700392

I have a similar rig to yours. I couldn't be more impressed with my high wattage class D amp. The Darkglass M900v2 through a Fender Bassman 410neo cab is so tight, punchy and thunderous but it becomes other worldly when stacked on another 410neo.

 

[trailer]

I'm using an 800 watt quilter bass block through one old 8ohm 1x15 trace elliot, I have two but I just dont need both. I'm always surprised to see how little wattage I'm actually using after I get my sound right in the mix. We're talking like 30-40 watts lol. Of course we have full pa support, and our guitarist and keys guy use small moderately adjusted combo amps on the other side of the stage. And our sax player just started using iems (thank God) so I only have to compete with drums onstage.

 

[Jaygetsreal]

Enjoying this thread. It discusses things I have been wrestling with - tube/SS, stage/PA, cab sizes etc.
Mostly 'supply-side' - how we deliver music to audiences. But I think there's an underlying psychological aspect too which might explain the OP.
On my music system at home I use two settings. For older rock music (pre 80s) I have the bass control up about 6dB. For contemporary music I use a defeat switch to bypass the tone controis. I may be wrong but apparently over the decades we have become more accustomed to way more bass in the mix so old recordings sound thin. Older jazz recordings are sometimes so lacking in bass content that I have trouble learning their bass lines! (I learn by ear).
So my hypothesis is that our ears, and our audiences' ears, are expecting more bass content in the live mix too, thus explaining why we need so much more horsepower.
Maybe someone has researched this and has actual decibel data on it?

 

[Artman]

Played into the very same Rumble Cabs, my Hartke HA3500 is significantly cleaner, louder, and less dark or muddy than my Rumble 500 v.3 head. My Rumble at 4ohms (500watts) with a Rumble 210v.3 and a Rumble 112 v.3 is not nearly as loud and clear as my my Hartke HA3500 is at 8 ohms (250 watts) through the 210 with the 112 underneath it and unplugged. I've had similar experiences with every one the different generation 3500's that I have owned and still own. I like the sounds that both the Rumble and the Hartke make, but they are different voices just as my Pudulla Buzz and my Stingray are different from one another. There is a lot more to volume than just "how many watts".
If you have a 410 that's equipped with some nice sensitive speakers that work well with the cab's tuning, either that HA2500 or the little Ampeg ought to be loud enough for most rock bands. Heck, maybe even with a 410 Transporter. If it isn't, plug in a second cab.
If you really like the Hartke's "hi-fi" sound though, I'd consider shopping around for a second hand Hartke 3500, because as awesome as it is, the voicing of that VR is totally vintage Ampeg which is something completely different. Edit: I might have added an SVT VR head to my collection, but I can get pretty close to SVT-like with my Rumble.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Bingo!

In the old ear splitting backline only days back in the 70s I never had more than 300W on stage. And I was loud enough to cause ear damage. For bar gigs I was only usually pushing 150W with a smaller head and it was the same deal.

Today I use around 350-400W into a 2x10 cab most times and have zero headroom or volume issues.

I must be missing something.

Power factoring became the standard. Whereas our old amps could pump an RMS rated sine all day long now they only have to do it 1/8 of the time. Boomf went out the window unless you add another 700w 'rms' you don't ever need except it actually delivers transients like your old 300w amp did.

 

[Djadja]

Enjoying this thread. It discusses things I have been wrestling with - tube/SS, stage/PA, cab sizes etc.
Mostly 'supply-side' - how we deliver music to audiences. But I think there's an underlying psychological aspect too which might explain the OP.
On my music system at home I use two settings. For older rock music (pre 80s) I have the bass control up about 6dB. For contemporary music I use a defeat switch to bypass the tone controis. I may be wrong but apparently over the decades we have become more accustomed to way more bass in the mix so old recordings sound thin. Older jazz recordings are sometimes so lacking in bass content that I have trouble learning their bass lines! (I learn by ear).
So my hypothesis is that our ears, and our audiences' ears, are expecting more bass content in the live mix too, thus explaining why we need so much more horsepower.
Maybe someone has researched this and has actual decibel data on it?

I think part of the reason for lack of bass content is that those old 100 watt amps really were inadequate... as were the speakers... they were just all that was available. The speakers were not nearly as efficient and didn’t go as low as those available today and the amps were less powerful. There is no way that a 100 watt amp could keep up with a 50 watt Marshall 1/2 stack let alone a 100 watt full stack especially with the speakers available then.

 

[JimmyM]

I think part of the reason for lack of bass content is that those old 100 watt amps really were inadequate... as were the speakers... they were just all that was available. The speakers were not nearly as efficient and didn’t go as low as those available today and the amps were less powerful. There is no way that a 100 watt amp could keep up with a 50 watt Marshall 1/2 stack let alone a 100 watt full stack especially with the speakers available then.

As someone who was there, I can attest that bass amps back then were in no way inadequate. True, speakers have greatly improved in power handling and tonal possibilities since then, but when you play in bands that don't want to get fired for being too loud, you learn alternate strategies for dealing with high power guitar amps with big cabs...it's a little something I like to call "turning down."

 

[Haunted House]

Listen, don't anyone fool you...watts are measured the same way now as when they were 70 years ago. The same 170 or so watts that was enough for you years ago will be enough for you now. I gig with a Micro VR and an 8 ohm 210 on a pretty regular basis and it's certainly loud enough for me on most of my gigs without PA support, and on the gigs it's not, we have PA support. And I've tried into an 810 many times, and it will get loud enough to get me fired from pretty much every gig I've ever done, including the hard rock and metal gigs I did back in the day. I might suggest the PF350 for you over the Micro VR as it costs, sounds and works the same but has 350w at 4 ohms. But yeah, you certainly don't need 1000w to do what you do!

Thanks for the reply! It sounds as though you're pretty pleased with that 200 watt SVT Micro VR, huh? At the moment, I'm leaning toward going with that with my 410TP and then adding the second cabinet. Is it safe to say that you would recommend it? Plus, I kind of dig the vintage look of it. As I look plenty vintage myself!

Welcome back to bass world. I too took a couple decades off to discover much has changed in Bassland, but much has stayed there same. Watts have stayed the same, but the production of them has gotten cheaper, lighter and smaller.

Thanks! Much has changed! Man, isn't that the truth! My old rig, the Acoustic 450 and a single Hartke 410TP was more than enough thirty years ago. But now, I don't know. But Jimmy did raise a very valid point however; 170 watts are 170 watts. Whether its 1970, 1990 or 2020. And yes, these tiny little amps (Like the Trace Elliot ELF, for example) blow me away. Its amazing the leaps in technology. I feel like I've been in suspended animation on board the Botany Bay for 300 years!

The micro is a great amp, but it is a little small. Even with a nice big cabinet. You'll find yourself cranking the gain up too much to compensate. Check out the pf500 or 800. They're great.

Yup, I've read quite a bit about them, and the PF350. Watched lots of You Tube reviews, etc. Those are a little out of my budget though, at present. And any of the three would probably make my 410TP explode. But they look great, and get plenty of positive reviews.

THANK YOU everyone, for all of the great responses and conversation! This forum has indeed been a wealth of learning. I appreciate it!