Not Loud Enough?

[Haunted House]

Friends, I have a question. Some may see it as a stupid question, but I'm not a troll and I really genuinely want to ask.

I'm researching heads to go with my Hartke 410TP. My plan is to get a second cab, exactly the same, and stack them. I love that Hartke sound. I just do. Think of Chris Squire playing with Black Sabbath (instead of Geezer). I like to have a punchy sound, with lots of presence, highs and high mids, yet still with enough bottom end to make the ground and walls shake. You know? So years ago (I'm old, and getting back into playing after a couple of decades), I used an Acoustic 450 head with a Sunn cabinet, I think it was a 2x12 cabinet. A few years later, I used the same head with my single Hartke 410TP cab, and I played a Ric 4003 with it. Loved it! The Acoustic 450 into my 8ohm Hartke 410 yielded something around the neighborhood of 100 watts, I think. I think. We did Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Motorhead, and I never had a problem with having enough firepower to keep up with a Marshall 100 watt guitar stack. Even in fair sized clubs with fair sized stages.

But now, flash forward many years. And in my research, I've seen countless reviews and opinions stating that a 200 - 300 watt bass rig is "okay for small venues" but not enough head room for much else. What?? :-D I'm thinking of either a Hartke HA2500 (250 watts into 4ohms), or else an Ampeg SVT Micro VR (200 watts into 4 ohms, I believe). But either of these heads with my Hartke stack would not be enough? 200 - 250 watts is "not enough"? How can this be? Granted, I'm old, and things have changed - a LOT - but in my entire life I never knew any guitar or bass player who had anything more than a 100 watt rig. And those 100 watt rigs were more than enough to cause me to have to wear hearing aids now, in my dotage. (I know. I never wore ear plugs. I was stupid.) Be that as it may. Now I see 500, 800 even 1000 watt amps! A thousand watts?? Good grief, where would you even use that, the 02 Arena? (Lol)

So please, share some opinions if you would. Is a 200 - 250 watt rig powered by either of the heads I mentioned (and two Hartke 410s) something that folks would laugh at? Has anyone used either of those heads? What were your experiences with them?

Thanks all! Mark...

 

[tshapiro]

100-200 tube watts could be enough. Solid state - no.

For 2 410's wouldn't consider anything lower that 800w if I were playing live, but, I like my rig to have plenty of headroom.

 

[Haunted House]

100-200 tube watts could be enough. Solid state - no.

For 2 410's wouldn't consider anything lower that 800w if I were playing live, but, I like my rig to have plenty of headroom.

Thanks for your response! Interesting - tube yes, SS no? My Hartke 410s are rated for only 300 watts (each), so that is another consideration.

 

[BeauZooka]

I don’t think any of the 70’s Acoustic amps were tube. All SS. That said, they were professional amps with quality parts and transformers. Very loud.

 

[Haunted House]

I don’t think any of the 70’s Acoustic amps were tube. All SS. That said, they were professional amps with quality parts and transformers. Very loud.

Correct, my 450 was SS. And yes, it was always loud enough. I kind of wish I would have kept it.

 

[Kro]

100-200 tube watts could be enough. Solid state - no.

For 2 410's wouldn't consider anything lower that 800w if I were playing live, but, I like my rig to have plenty of headroom.

With two 410s, 800w might be nice to have, but it shouldn't be necessary given how sensitive that type of rig should be. Even 200 solid state watts from a respectable amp into that combination should be plenty loud for just about any situation. Might not always be the cleanest tone, but plenty of 200w SS amps would likely sound very good with that setup.

Sure, I'd probably feel more comfortable with 300-400w, but with more wattage you could also get away with ditching one of the 410s when both aren't needed and still have plenty of volume.

 

[BeauZooka]

FYI: the ACC 450 is 170 watts at 4 ohms - most likely rated conservatively.

 

[Haunted House]

FYI: the ACC 450 is 170 watts at 4 ohms - most likely rated conservatively.

Yup, that sounds right. But at the time (back in the early 90s), I just had the one Hartke 410TP, which is rated 8ohms, with the ACC 450. So I'm guessing it was something a bit less than 170 watts. The more I think about it, the more I'm wishing I would have kept that ACC head.

 

[bbh]

I run 500 W per 10” speaker.

 

[InhumanResource]

Friends, I have a question. Some may see it as a stupid question, but I'm not a troll and I really genuinely want to ask.

I'm researching heads to go with my Hartke 410TP. My plan is to get a second cab, exactly the same, and stack them. I love that Hartke sound. I just do. Think of Chris Squire playing with Black Sabbath (instead of Geezer). I like to have a punchy sound, with lots of presence, highs and high mids, yet still with enough bottom end to make the ground and walls shake. You know? So years ago (I'm old, and getting back into playing after a couple of decades), I used an Acoustic 450 head with a Sunn cabinet, I think it was a 2x12 cabinet. A few years later, I used the same head with my single Hartke 410TP cab, and I played a Ric 4003 with it. Loved it! The Acoustic 450 into my 8ohm Hartke 410 yielded something around the neighborhood of 100 watts, I think. I think. We did Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Motorhead, and I never had a problem with having enough firepower to keep up with a Marshall 100 watt guitar stack. Even in fair sized clubs with fair sized stages.

But now, flash forward many years. And in my research, I've seen countless reviews and opinions stating that a 200 - 300 watt bass rig is "okay for small venues" but not enough head room for much else. What?? :-D I'm thinking of either a Hartke HA2500 (250 watts into 4ohms), or else an Ampeg SVT Micro VR (200 watts into 4 ohms, I believe). But either of these heads with my Hartke stack would not be enough? 200 - 250 watts is "not enough"? How can this be? Granted, I'm old, and things have changed - a LOT - but in my entire life I never knew any guitar or bass player who had anything more than a 100 watt rig. And those 100 watt rigs were more than enough to cause me to have to wear hearing aids now, in my dotage. (I know. I never wore ear plugs. I was stupid.) Be that as it may. Now I see 500, 800 even 1000 watt amps! A thousand watts?? Good grief, where would you even use that, the 02 Arena? (Lol)

So please, share some opinions if you would. Is a 200 - 250 watt rig powered by either of the heads I mentioned (and two Hartke 410s) something that folks would laugh at? Has anyone used either of those heads? What were your experiences with them?

Thanks all! Mark...

View attachment 3699979

The biggest question is if you'll have FOH support at your gigs. If yes, you only need enough firepower for the stage. If no, your 410 for normal bars and two of them for anything bigger with whatever head you please. Wattage isn't so much the concern as speaker is.

 

[_One//Man//Mutiny_]

I ran a Hartke HA3500 into 2 8ohm 4x10s and it was just enough to cut it, the band I played with was unbelievably loud though. I've been back at it for the past few years and usually use a 900w head into a 6x10 but I've been using a single 1x15 Fender bassman neo at practice and I really think it could probably be more than enough for small to medium gigs, it's also under 40lbs and the head weighs next to nothing, the heaviest thing I cart back and forth to practice is probably the pedalboard. I can easily over power the guitar player using a 4x12 and not have to go past 10oclock, I'm really considering getting a second cab and have 2 fully fledged monster rigs, that I won't feel bad taking out of the house!
There's definitely easier ways to get gig level volume. Lower wattage into more speakers is a bit of a compromise on both sides of the spectrum. More wattage through more efficient cabs can get you more with physically less.

 

[crazyBassClown]

I think the reason many here say you NEED so many watts is because that is what they have are justifying it to themselves. Alternately they are boosting low end significantly for that room rumbling sensation which chews through a lot of power.
If you are happy with moderate/reasonable low end then 200 watts into any reasonable cab is enough to keep up with an acoustic drum kit, which is all you will ever need. If the drums are in the PA the bass will be.

 

[JimmyM]

Listen, don't anyone fool you...watts are measured the same way now as when they were 70 years ago. The same 170 or so watts that was enough for you years ago will be enough for you now. I gig with a Micro VR and an 8 ohm 210 on a pretty regular basis and it's certainly loud enough for me on most of my gigs without PA support, and on the gigs it's not, we have PA support. And I've tried into an 810 many times, and it will get loud enough to get me fired from pretty much every gig I've ever done, including the hard rock and metal gigs I did back in the day. I might suggest the PF350 for you over the Micro VR as it costs, sounds and works the same but has 350w at 4 ohms. But yeah, you certainly don't need 1000w to do what you do!

 

[nnnnnn]

Note that although 800W is louder than 100W it's not eight times as loud. Generally speaking though more power means more headroom, so you can get louder before it starts to distort.

 

[el murdoque]

My 'loud' head is an aguilar Tonehammer 500. I've yet to encounter any circumstances where that, coupled with my two barefaced cabs is not loud enough. I have that one gig where we play at obscene noise levels. That's where I turn the master up to 1 o'clock and on that amp, there is quite a bit more to be had when you turn up further.
I once forgot to bring my amp to rehearsal (thought it was there, but it was in a case at home) and had to dig out my good ol' Peavey Mark IV that was stashed in that rehearsal room. That thing does 240 Watts into 4 Ohms and I remembered it as being quite loud. Well - I had to max the master and turn up the gain until the clipping/compression light turned on, so basically as loud as this thing gets. I was just about loud enough.
But that was a rehearsal room that literally eats bass. The drummer has to mic the bassdrum and the two guitars play halfstacks that are turned up quite loud.

These modern times often seem to spit out means of amplification where the numbers printed on the front are more likely reverse engineered from wishful thinking than deduced from scientific methods.
I'm not calling names here, but you can actually find amps rated at 350 watts that will go just as loud as amps rated double or even thrice that number. Some amps will run happily all night with the controls dimed while others are prone to shut off when you play an hour at 80%.

...and while watts have become cheap, light and easy to come by for bassists, along with small, light and loud cabinets (combine a good and poweful class D head of your choice with one or two of the so called supercabs [greenboy, barefaced, audiokinesis etc] and you will have the power of a full stack at your disposal at the weight of an old practice combo); The same development has been done for PA systems. All the venues I played a few years back where the PA was just enough for vocals have better systems now, capable of running the whole band - so while I can easily bring a rig that will carry the whole venue, I hardly ever need to.

 

[Bahjark]

My 'loud' head is an aguilar Tonehammer 500. I've yet to encounter any circumstances where that, coupled with my two barefaced cabs is not loud enough. I have that one gig where we play at obscene noise levels. That's where I turn the master up to 1 o'clock and on that amp, there is quite a bit more to be had when you turn up further.
I once forgot to bring my amp to rehearsal (thought it was there, but it was in a case at home) and had to dig out my good ol' Peavey Mark IV that was stashed in that rehearsal room. That thing does 240 Watts into 4 Ohms and I remembered it as being quite loud. Well - I had to max the master and turn up the gain until the clipping/compression light turned on, so basically as loud as this thing gets. I was just about loud enough.
But that was a rehearsal room that literally eats bass. The drummer has to mic the bassdrum and the two guitars play halfstacks that are turned up quite loud.

These modern times often seem to spit out means of amplification where the numbers printed on the front are more likely reverse engineered from wishful thinking than deduced from scientific methods.
I'm not calling names here, but you can actually find amps rated at 350 watts that will go just as loud as amps rated double or even thrice that number. Some amps will run happily all night with the controls dimed while others are prone to shut off when you play an hour at 80%.

...and while watts have become cheap, light and easy to come by for bassists, along with small, light and loud cabinets (combine a good and poweful class D head of your choice with one or two of the so called supercabs [greenboy, barefaced, audiokinesis etc] and you will have the power of a full stack at your disposal at the weight of an old practice combo); The same development has been done for PA systems. All the venues I played a few years back where the PA was just enough for vocals have better systems now, capable of running the whole band - so while I can easily bring a rig that will carry the whole venue, I hardly ever need to.

"Thrice"

I liked your post, not only for its content, but for the elegant use of this oft neglected word.

 

[40Hz]

Listen, don't anyone fool you...watts are measured the same way now as when they were 70 years ago. The same 170 or so watts that was enough for you years ago will be enough for you now. I gig with a Micro VR and an 8 ohm 210 on a pretty regular basis and it's certainly loud enough for me on most of my gigs without PA support, and on the gigs it's not, we have PA support. And I've tried into an 810 many times, and it will get loud enough to get me fired from pretty much every gig I've ever done, including the hard rock and metal gigs I did back in the day. I might suggest the PF350 for you over the Micro VR as it costs, sounds and works the same but has 350w at 4 ohms. But yeah, you certainly don't need 1000w to do what you do!

Bingo!

In the old ear splitting backline only days back in the 70s I never had more than 300W on stage. And I was loud enough to cause ear damage. For bar gigs I was only usually pushing 150W with a smaller head and it was the same deal.

Today I use around 350-400W into a 2x10 cab most times and have zero headroom or volume issues.

I must be missing something.

 

[Lobster11]

in my entire life I never knew any guitar or bass player who had anything more than a 100 watt rig

Wattage of guitar amps and bass amps aren't comparable in terms of volume and headroom because it takes way more energy to reproduce low-frequency sounds than high-frequency sounds at a given volume. A 50-watt guitar amp can be ear-splitting, and more than enough for most situations, whereas a 50-watt bass amp is barely adequate as a bedroom practice amp. I've seen people bandy about the general rule of thumb that the bass player should have something like 10x the wattage of the guitar player. That's probably a little over the top, but you get the idea. If you want to be loud -- which I assume you do if you're talking about using a pair 4x10s -- and also have deep bass response and plenty of headroom -- you're not likely to get it with 100 watts or maybe even with 250. Personally, I use a 500-watt head with a pair of 2x10s, and even though I don't play especially loud I wouldn't want less than that. (I also have a 50-watt combo that can get surprisingly loud, but without much bottom end.)

 

[Kmonk]

I had a Hartke HA 3500 that I ran with a Hartke 4.5XL and a 210XL cab. I played in a 6 piece band which included 2 guitarists, one of them doubled on keys, we also had a keyboard player, drummer and lead singer. One guitarist was very loud. We played clubs, casinos and outdoor festivals. My rig was more than loud enough. I never turned the volume past 4.

 

[micguy]

The loudest band I ever played in, I played through a solid state 100 watt head. That was a big amp back then (assuming you couldn't afford an SVT, and as I was in college....

It was plenty loud. I had the tinitus to prove it. Luckily, that eventually went away.

Now I play mostly ampless gigs , where it's milliwatts to drive my in ears, and kilowatts in the PA. The only gig I use an amp on, 50 watts would be overkill if I maxed it out, but I bring a 250 watt head, because it's small and light.

Loud is relative. You need to understand the efficiency of your speakers. And the size and liveness of the venue. And whether or not you have PA support. Anyone saying things like "200 watts is not enough" is oversimplifying the situation. They may have experience in their situation where their statements are true for them, but using it as general advice is not necessarily a good idea.