Not Loud Enough?

[JimmyM]

Thanks for the reply! It sounds as though you're pretty pleased with that 200 watt SVT Micro VR, huh? At the moment, I'm leaning toward going with that with my 410TP and then adding the second cabinet. Is it safe to say that you would recommend it? Plus, I kind of dig the vintage look of it. As I look plenty vintage myself!

I would recommend the Micro VR over the PF350 only if looks mean more to you than higher wattage and a quieter fan For me, it usually does. My new band loves the look of the Micro VR rig so I usually use it with them more than my PF350. But if I could only get one and was pairing it with a Hartke two-410 rig, I'd go PF350 every time. It does not hurt the tone to have that extra wattage even if you don't use it, and you can stick it in a laptop bag. But I'm very pleased with my little micros to the point where I don't have any more trad solid state amps...only full tube amps and micros.

Thanks! Much has changed! Man, isn't that the truth! My old rig, the Acoustic 450 and a single Hartke 410TP was more than enough thirty years ago. But now, I don't know. But Jimmy did raise a very valid point however; 170 watts are 170 watts. Whether its 1970, 1990 or 2020. And yes, these tiny little amps (Like the Trace Elliot ELF, for example) blow me away. Its amazing the leaps in technology. I feel like I've been in suspended animation on board the Botany Bay for 300 years!

The more things change, the more they stay the same. All this new gear out there still sits and waits for you to do something with it, just like the old days. And just like the old days, you can make it as simple or as complex as you want. The only major difference is that cabs can take way more power in smaller packages and large solid state bass amps still sell but not like they used to. Ampeg probably sells 20 Micro VR's for every SVT 4 Pro they sell (just a guess...could be more). Mesa's discontinued all their bass amps but the micros.

 

[chadds]

The real question is yours alone to answer. How do you want to sound? Out front, full band, no PA, not standing inches from and above your rig.

Many get this great turned up to 1 tone at home. Go hear the group live and it’s the generic fart burp you hear everywhere. We are responsible for sound people not caring for us at setup.
You need watts as many as you can afford if, you love that clean sound, that sound that responds to your touch, and that sound that is obvious you are digging in going all Chris Squire. Can your rig go from smooth to snap transient without balking? That’s watts and good speakers.

Better to have more and turn down than limit your expression.

 

[Jim Carr]

As someone who was there, I can attest that bass amps back then were in no way inadequate. True, speakers have greatly improved in power handling and tonal possibilities since then, but when you play in bands that don't want to get fired for being too loud, you learn alternate strategies for dealing with high power guitar amps with big cabs...it's a little something I like to call "turning down."

I was there, too, and made my living gigging for years. Jeez, we are getting old.

OK, but before SVT, Sunn, Acoustic, Standel etc., arrived in the later 60's/early 70s, all we had were dual showman, bassman, Kustom, and assorted home-brew. No i didn't forget Vox, I had an Essex, gigged a Foundation, and omitted them from the above list on purpose. I found all of the latter definitely inadequate in bands with two of any fender guitar amps with 210, 212, or 410.

"Turn down," is a great idea, unfortunately, none of the dozens of guitarists I gigged with in the 60's saw it as anything other than a plot by adults to ruin their tone (and fun), LOL!

 

[Papuzzo]

One other thing people ignore is that enormous elephant in the room. So many people are moving to In Ear Monitoring and the need for 1000W amp heads and stacked 4x10 cabs is diminishing rapidly. Note that clubs are constantly harassed by neighbors trying to keep the volume down to reasonable levels, people inside the club sometimes sue for ear damage, and more often than not, the band sucks and it is truly painful to hear a bad band at deafening levels. Gone are the days of deafening concerts. The good news is, everyone is selling their very expensive gear made for deafening levels at serious bargains because no one is buying it anymore. So, if you really want a monster head feeding a 8x10 you can get it at a bargain.

The baby elephant in the room is portability. Lifting 80lb cabs into and out of the van and slugging them into the club is not fun. Breaking them down at 2am is even less fun.

I occasionally go to see jazz fusion bands play and am surprised when I see more than a 4x10 cab. Often I see a single 2x10 or even a combo amp just giving enough volume for stage monitoring. Most guitarists have abandoned the Marshall stack and play through a Helix or Kemper straight to the board. And I have seen a few bigger concerts where there are no amps on the stage and everyone is using IEMs.

 

[Haunted House]

@JimmyM
I am thinking more seriously about a PF350. I've found some pretty decent deals on them around the web. With my one Hartke 410 that I have now, it would be fine; its an 8ohm cab and the amp puts out 250 watts at 8 ohms, I see. But when I get my second 8ohm cab, I'll be feeding it 4ohms, so it will then put out 350 watts. The Hartke cabs are rated for 300 watts, so would the PF350 absolutely wreck the speakers? I guess I don't really know if watts work that way: 50 watts over the stated max and they break the speakers, for certain? Might it be better to just get two 400 watt 8 ohm cabs?

 

[Jim Carr]

@JimmyM
I am thinking more seriously about a PF350. I've found some pretty decent deals on them around the web. With my one Hartke 410 that I have now, it would be fine; its an 8ohm cab and the amp puts out 250 watts at 8 ohms, I see. But when I get my second 8ohm cab, I'll be feeding it 4ohms, so it will then put out 350 watts. The Hartke cabs are rated for 300 watts, so would the PF350 absolutely wreck the speakers? I guess I don't really know if watts work that way: 50 watts over the stated max and they break the speakers, for certain? Might it be better to just get two 400 watt 8 ohm cabs?

You can wreak speakers with far less. You need only listen for distortion.
I realize that the latter is a problem if you use distortion effects.
Get to know you cab's clean limits, and you'll probably be fine, if you pay attention.

 

[Papuzzo]

@JimmyM
I I guess I don't really know if watts work that way: 50 watts over the stated max and they break the speakers, for certain? Might it be better to just get two 400 watt 8 ohm cabs?

Your amp puts out a max of 350 watts at 4 ohms and circa 200W at 8 ohms only at full volume. If you play at low volumes you are using a fraction of that power. If you use 2 cabs, each cab sees a max of 175W. As for cab ratings, I tend to think of them as build quality guidelines rather than hard limits. So, a cab with 1000W RMS can theoretically be pushed harder than one with 200W RMS. As said before, you have to listen to the cab to see if it is crapping out. If you reach that point you need to upgrade your cabs.

I think you will be fine with the PF350 driving one or two Hartke 410 cabs. The pf350 with one 410 will be very loud and you will still have reserve power and volume should you ever need it. Add another cab only if you play in a death metal band that is trying desperately to cause permanent hearing loss to yourselves and anyone else within 25 yards.