#notallmen

[hrodbert696]

The vast majority of men have never needed grace to avoid being creeps.

I beg to differ. If you are so morally pristine that you're immune from any temptation to do wrong, then you have been gifted far beyond the ordinary run of humanity. If you are oblivious to the good fortune that made you this way, you may be cursed beyond the ordinary run of humanity.

 

[JRA]

actions should speak louder than words

or should I add a smiley?

let me recommend this one to get you started:

There are many rotten...asshat men around
There are fewer but genuine decent and good men

IMO: a majority of men (at least those with daughters) are "genuine decent and good men." it's what we've learned to be --- having been taught by a lot of good women! god bless my mom!

good thread...and timely, slobake . thanks!

 

[basscooker]

As a single dude, I find it more difficult to take initiative in expressing interest these days. It seems that simply paying an honest compliment sends people straight to the defensive. Not even a "PG" compliment about attractiveness; but one about a hairstyle or fashion choice can result in an alerted response. Just the other day I was given red laser glares from someone because I said hello as our eyes met passing in the aisle of a store. I find it sad that just being a friendly co-patron in a retail environment is now going too far. What's next? Shopping with my eyes to the floor and never saying a word? Wow, sensitivity. Just wow.

Nothing really to contribute other than asking: at what point do we just stop leaving the house for fear of being deemed subhuman for smiling in someone's general direction? So many people say it's hard to find a good person to date. Well maybe that has something to do with it being impossible to be friendly to people you've never met without being treated like a predator.

 

[RoadRanger]

Yes, we are all scum. Best we can do is keep it in our heads and out of our words and hands

 

[RoadRanger]

I just try and treat everybody with respect, regardless of where their genitals are.

Last I knew they were all located in the same place?

 

[Ben B]

I was in my late 20s when Not All Men became popular. I also work on a college campus so I see a lot of stereotypes against everyone one.

Everyone knows that not all men treat women badly, are abusers, rapists, etc.

But. I also acknowledge how hard it can be not to get defensive when so many women stereotype all men. If you don’t believe me, just go on your favorite social media site and search “men are trash” or “kill all men”.

I agree. Whether it's been online or something I've heard in person, a man stating "not all men" is often a reply to a woman stating "all men" are like that or "all men" do this.

And I'm not implying "all women" think men are pigs. Most don't. All it takes is a few bad women and a few bad men to screw it up for the rest of us.

 

[slobake]

As a single dude, I find it more difficult to take initiative in expressing interest these days. It seems that simply paying an honest compliment sends people straight to the defensive. Not even a "PG" compliment about attractiveness; but one about a hairstyle or fashion choice can result in an alerted response. Just the other day I was given red laser glares from someone because I said hello as our eyes met passing in the aisle of a store. I find it sad that just being a friendly co-patron in a retail environment is now going too far. What's next? Shopping with my eyes to the floor and never saying a word? Wow, sensitivity. Just wow.

Nothing really to contribute other than asking: at what point do we just stop leaving the house for fear of being deemed subhuman for smiling in someone's general direction? So many people say it's hard to find a good person to date. Well maybe that has something to do with it being impossible to be friendly to people you've never met without being treated like a predator.

I am a very friendly person. I say hi to strangers and sometimes they react in an unfriendly manner. By listening to women talk about their experiences I have learned that no one owes me the response I think appropriate or even a response at all. It has made me pull back a little but I am still myself, I have just leaned to not be bothered by how people respond. Okay, sometimes I am a little bothered but that is my issue not theirs.

 

[slobake]

Yes, we are all scum. Best we can do is keep it in our heads and out of our words and hands

I do my best to keep my mind out of the gutter and back in bed with my wife where it belongs. Sometimes I fail, but I keep it to myself. Sometimes my eyes give it away, nothing I can do then except look the other way.

 

[RoadRanger]

 

[slobake]

Johnny murdered his wife* but Columbo didn't let him get away with it.

* For anyone not familiar with Columbo. Johnny Cash didn't really murder his wife, it was just an episode of Columbo.

 

[blastoff99]

The point that most resonates with me in the OP is the one about defensiveness. Not All Men, or Not All White People, or Not All Whoever is technically correct, but allows me to simply throw up a Not All! and absolve myself of responsibility. Lalala, I can't hear you.

My paternal ancestors came from Texas. They were there a long time. They were poor - very poor. And they did not own slaves. But for me to say 'My kin didn't own people, and in fact Old Jim was considered a member of the family' is a move to wallpaper over my part in the racial disparity today. Just because my family wasn't directly involved in the institution of slavery doesn't mean that I as a white person don't benefit from an unbalanced society. Maybe I'm willing to acknowledge that I do benefit, but Not All keeps me from looking at what I might be doing to perpetuate it, or see how people who look different than me experience daily life in a way that I can't comprehend.

Same with Not All Men, I think. Are all men rapists? No. But how do men participate in a culture where consent is devalued and where women are lesser? I got a two great examples of this the other night. I was at a gathering of friends of BillW, and the attendees to this book study are all male. They are all nice guys, with years and decades from the last drink, and jobs, families, etc. But two things happened that had me wincing:

1. Three of the men started talking about another guy, who is using pot, has some mental issues, and has a history of hitting on every female newcomer. After a meeting a few nights ago, he offered to take the brand new young female newcomer to his house 'for coffee and to talk some more.' Dude has a known history of sex with new women, and my buddies here were saying 'Yeah, I shoulda done something,' which turned into 'Well I don't really know him all that well,' and finally went to 'Normally that older woman sits in back and if she had been she woulda seen what was going on and woulda put a stop to it.' OMG guys. You all know his history, saw what was going on, did and said nothing, and in the course of this conversation blamed it on an old lady for sitting in the wrong seat? Give me a break.

That, my friends, is 'totally innocent guys' contributing to rape. You cannot tell me that someone still hung over in a meeting is capable of giving consent. There's too much power imbalance, just for starters. So no, nobody in the room a couple of nights ago raped this woman. Not All Men!

2. This is more minor, but I'm the guilty party. During the course of this gathering, two of the guys made comments that were highly disparaging to women - not specific women (if you talk about your ex I can't argue because I don't know here, although it's probably poor form of you to be badmouthing), but Women In General. These comments were sweeping and demeaning generalizations and got a good laugh from the assembled. I didn't laugh. But I also didn't say, 'Guys, that's far out of bounds and you know it.' I just let it happen. Why? Because there was no good outcome for me. They're gonna look at me and say, 'What are you, some kind of feminist?' and in that room of jeans and steel-toe boots and Cabela's caps, it's not gonna go well. So instead of standing up for people who weren't present, I did what was safest and easiest for me. You can argue that I was under no obligation, and I guess you're right. But instead of promoting the value of every human being, I took a cowardly path.

 

[Pbassmanca]

I beg to differ. If you are so morally pristine that you're immune from any temptation to do wrong, then you have been gifted far beyond the ordinary run of humanity. If you are oblivious to the good fortune that made you this way, you may be cursed beyond the ordinary run of humanity.

Thought, temptation and impulse are one thing ; Acting on them is wholly another. @guy n. cognito is correct: A majority of men have not and do not act in a sexually inappropriate manner towards women. Those that have and do are the problem. IMHO.

 

[FingerDub]

I took my dog to the dog park yesterday, and when another aggressive dog that was trying to hump mine was in action, I jokingly said to its owner "your dog is sexually harassing mine". She apologized to me like it was real. I was shocked, and laughed and had to tell her I was joking. That's how sensitive people are these days.

 

[Oddly]

As as avid twitter-avoider I tend to completely ignore any of these 'hashtag' movements.
As a relatively happily-married over 50 I am so glad I'm out of the whole relationship-hunting game.
Seems like the only sane course these days is to stay at home.
Like that line @FingerDub posted above, I have the sort of un-pc sense of humour that'd surely get me in serious trouble.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

These famous cases make the headlines and the way in which they are handled set a precedent. Matt Lauer won't really suffer from these allegations even though the backlash was swift. However, similar allegations without due process could really destroy an average Joe or Jane's career and future job prospects.

If I can indulge in a personal story and a quick aside...

I worked as a middle manager at a former job. I had a (older) woman subordinate who headed one of my departments, and she was an excellent worker. We got along well, too. I was going through a rough period at work and one day she offered to take me out to lunch. I agreed, but as lunch got closer I began to really dread the thought of how the situation could be perceived.

She wanted to drive us, but I declined. When she asked what time we were leaving I told her to head out at the normal lunch hour and I'd follow behind shortly after. I did that so we wouldn't be walking out together. When we got there, I felt the need to pick a table that was in a very visible and public spot. When she offered to pay I very quickly told her no. When we left, I told her I needed to get gas for my car. Again, I did this so that we wouldn't be pulling in at the same time.

Looking back on the situation, I think it's insane I felt the need to act that way about getting lunch with another person, but that's the environment we currently live in. Things can easily be misconstrued, and any potential he-said-she-said situation without due process currently ends badly for men. It's sad, but I genuinely had concern that a basic pleasantry like lunch with a fellow co-worker could put my career in jeopardy despite there being zero foundation for that worry.

I had a lot of gal pals and girlfriends throughout grade school. I was never one to have trouble talking to girls, having relationships, and maintaining friendships with the opposite sex. I'm not sure what changed once I got into college but my experiences just interacting with women these days mirror similarly to Basscooker's. I grew up in a community where you said hi to folks whenever you entered a room or came in close proximity to someone in public. It has gotten to the point where it's a 50/50 shot between a lady saying hi back or looking at me like I have a second head.

I understand Slobake's thought that no one owes me a generic hello, but is that really what society has devolved to and is it what we really want? To Hrod's and Blastoff's point, I agree people can be (unknowingly) allowing assault culture to exist even if they don't directly participate in it, but I also believe someone can acknowledge that, work to change that culture, and also say, "hey, we also need to make sure we're not over-correcting the ship and get off course in a different direction."

TL;DR

I'm just happy I've been in a relationship with the same woman for going on five years. I couldn't imagine trying to date these days.

 

[Grumry]

From the title, I thought it meant "No Tall Men." I was getting worried because I'm 6' 2".

That's how I read it. I'm 6"4' and you nearly triggered me. I was born tall, I didn't choose to be tall.

 

[slobake]

The point that most resonates with me in the OP is the one about defensiveness. Not All Men, or Not All White People, or Not All Whoever is technically correct, but allows me to simply throw up a Not All! and absolve myself of responsibility. Lalala, I can't hear you.

My paternal ancestors came from Texas. They were there a long time. They were poor - very poor. And they did not own slaves. But for me to say 'My kin didn't own people, and in fact Old Jim was considered a member of the family' is a move to wallpaper over my part in the racial disparity today. Just because my family wasn't directly involved in the institution of slavery doesn't mean that I as a white person don't benefit from an unbalanced society. Maybe I'm willing to acknowledge that I do benefit, but Not All keeps me from looking at what I might be doing to perpetuate it, or see how people who look different than me experience daily life in a way that I can't comprehend.

Same with Not All Men, I think. Are all men rapists? No. But how do men participate in a culture where consent is devalued and where women are lesser? I got a two great examples of this the other night. I was at a gathering of friends of BillW, and the attendees to this book study are all male. They are all nice guys, with years and decades from the last drink, and jobs, families, etc. But two things happened that had me wincing:

1. Three of the men started talking about another guy, who is using pot, has some mental issues, and has a history of hitting on every female newcomer. After a meeting a few nights ago, he offered to take the brand new young female newcomer to his house 'for coffee and to talk some more.' Dude has a known history of sex with new women, and my buddies here were saying 'Yeah, I shoulda done something,' which turned into 'Well I don't really know him all that well,' and finally went to 'Normally that older woman sits in back and if she had been she woulda seen what was going on and woulda put a stop to it.' OMG guys. You all know his history, saw what was going on, did and said nothing, and in the course of this conversation blamed it on an old lady for sitting in the wrong seat? Give me a break.

That, my friends, is 'totally innocent guys' contributing to rape. You cannot tell me that someone still hung over in a meeting is capable of giving consent. There's too much power imbalance, just for starters. So no, nobody in the room a couple of nights ago raped this woman. Not All Men!

2. This is more minor, but I'm the guilty party. During the course of this gathering, two of the guys made comments that were highly disparaging to women - not specific women (if you talk about your ex I can't argue because I don't know here, although it's probably poor form of you to be badmouthing), but Women In General. These comments were sweeping and demeaning generalizations and got a good laugh from the assembled. I didn't laugh. But I also didn't say, 'Guys, that's far out of bounds and you know it.' I just let it happen. Why? Because there was no good outcome for me. They're gonna look at me and say, 'What are you, some kind of feminist?' and in that room of jeans and steel-toe boots and Cabela's caps, it's not gonna go well. So instead of standing up for people who weren't present, I did what was safest and easiest for me. You can argue that I was under no obligation, and I guess you're right. But instead of promoting the value of every human being, I took a cowardly path.

Did is miss something under #1. Was the guy inviting women over to their house to try and convince them to have consensual sex or was he inviting them over to rape them?
Inviting over women to my house to "have coffee and talk some more" when my intention is to try and seduce them is at best dishonest or worse but it is not the same as inviting them over to rape them.
If you know someone's primary motive is to seduce women should I warn a grown woman about this? If she was very young and/or naïve I probably should but otherwise is it up to me? No clear answers for me. I guess it is situational. I have done both. The typical response from women is something along the lines of "mind your own business."

 

[slobake]

These famous cases make the headlines and the way in which they are handled set a precedent. Matt Lauer won't really suffer from these allegations even though the backlash was swift. However, similar allegations without due process could really destroy an average Joe or Jane's career and future job prospects.

If I can indulge in a personal story and a quick aside...

I worked as a middle manager at a former job. I had a (older) woman subordinate who headed one of my departments, and she was an excellent worker. We got along well, too. I was going through a rough period at work and one day she offered to take me out to lunch. I agreed, but as lunch got closer I began to really dread the thought of how the situation could be perceived.

She wanted to drive us, but I declined. When she asked what time we were leaving I told her to head out at the normal lunch hour and I'd follow behind shortly after. I did that so we wouldn't be walking out together. When we got there, I felt the need to pick a table that was in a very visible and public spot. When she offered to pay I very quickly told her no. When we left, I told her I needed to get gas for my car. Again, I did this so that we wouldn't be pulling in at the same time.

Looking back on the situation, I think it's insane I felt the need to act that way about getting lunch with another person, but that's the environment we currently live in. Things can easily be misconstrued, and any potential he-said-she-said situation without due process currently ends badly for men. It's sad, but I genuinely had concern that a basic pleasantry like lunch with a fellow co-worker could put my career in jeopardy despite there being zero foundation for that worry.

I had a lot of gal pals and girlfriends throughout grade school. I was never one to have trouble talking to girls, having relationships, and maintaining friendships with the opposite sex. I'm not sure what changed once I got into college but my experiences just interacting with women these days mirror similarly to Basscooker's. I grew up in a community where you said hi to folks whenever you entered a room or came in close proximity to someone in public. It has gotten to the point where it's a 50/50 shot between a lady saying hi back or looking at me like I have a second head.

I understand Slobake's thought that no one owes me a generic hello, but is that really what society has devolved to and is it what we really want? To Hrod's and Blastoff's point, I agree people can be (unknowingly) allowing assault culture to exist even if they don't directly participate in it, but I also believe someone can acknowledge that, work to change that culture, and also say, "hey, we also need to make sure we're not over-correcting the ship and get off course in a different direction."

TL;DR

I'm just happy I've been in a relationship with the same woman for going on five years. I couldn't imagine trying to date these days.

I am not sure that every situation involving potential sexual harassment will automatically go against the man. Sure we can probably cite examples of that but that doesn't necessarily make it the norm.
It is good that we talk about these and all pull back and think about what we do and say.

 

[two fingers]

The point that most resonates with me in the OP is the one about defensiveness. Not All Men, or Not All White People, or Not All Whoever is technically correct, but allows me to simply throw up a Not All! and absolve myself of responsibility. Lalala, I can't hear you.

My paternal ancestors came from Texas. They were there a long time. They were poor - very poor. And they did not own slaves. But for me to say 'My kin didn't own people, and in fact Old Jim was considered a member of the family' is a move to wallpaper over my part in the racial disparity today. Just because my family wasn't directly involved in the institution of slavery doesn't mean that I as a white person don't benefit from an unbalanced society. Maybe I'm willing to acknowledge that I do benefit, but Not All keeps me from looking at what I might be doing to perpetuate it, or see how people who look different than me experience daily life in a way that I can't comprehend.

Same with Not All Men, I think. Are all men rapists? No. But how do men participate in a culture where consent is devalued and where women are lesser? I got a two great examples of this the other night. I was at a gathering of friends of BillW, and the attendees to this book study are all male. They are all nice guys, with years and decades from the last drink, and jobs, families, etc. But two things happened that had me wincing:

1. Three of the men started talking about another guy, who is using pot, has some mental issues, and has a history of hitting on every female newcomer. After a meeting a few nights ago, he offered to take the brand new young female newcomer to his house 'for coffee and to talk some more.' Dude has a known history of sex with new women, and my buddies here were saying 'Yeah, I shoulda done something,' which turned into 'Well I don't really know him all that well,' and finally went to 'Normally that older woman sits in back and if she had been she woulda seen what was going on and woulda put a stop to it.' OMG guys. You all know his history, saw what was going on, did and said nothing, and in the course of this conversation blamed it on an old lady for sitting in the wrong seat? Give me a break.

That, my friends, is 'totally innocent guys' contributing to rape. You cannot tell me that someone still hung over in a meeting is capable of giving consent. There's too much power imbalance, just for starters. So no, nobody in the room a couple of nights ago raped this woman. Not All Men!

2. This is more minor, but I'm the guilty party. During the course of this gathering, two of the guys made comments that were highly disparaging to women - not specific women (if you talk about your ex I can't argue because I don't know here, although it's probably poor form of you to be badmouthing), but Women In General. These comments were sweeping and demeaning generalizations and got a good laugh from the assembled. I didn't laugh. But I also didn't say, 'Guys, that's far out of bounds and you know it.' I just let it happen. Why? Because there was no good outcome for me. They're gonna look at me and say, 'What are you, some kind of feminist?' and in that room of jeans and steel-toe boots and Cabela's caps, it's not gonna go well. So instead of standing up for people who weren't present, I did what was safest and easiest for me. You can argue that I was under no obligation, and I guess you're right. But instead of promoting the value of every human being, I took a cowardly path.

I'm simply going to offer up an alternative to the way you saw both situations. I admit I have no idea what I'm talking about. But you seem a little too certain yourself. So I thought I would just toss out a couple of things.

1) The women who went home with the guy for "coffee" had good coffee and good sex and never felt threatened in any way. Those women still text that guy to this day. Some of them even went out with him more than once. Do you know for a fact this isn't true?

2) Sometimes a joke is just a joke. "White men can't dunk a basketball" is just a joke. Who cares? Making a joke about women being too emotional or nit picky can be just a joke. I didn't hear the jokes you did. Perhaps they were more sinister. But perhaps they were just jokes. There are rarely any jokes that don't make fun of SOMEBODY. That's just the nature of humor. There are famous comedians that pick on the homeless, alcoholic relatives, all races and religions, etc.

I am in no way trying to justify any awful behavior. But I think part of the problem is that so many of us are walking around incredibly "certain" that most men are up to something and that I myself am a ticking rape time bomb about to go off any second and there's nothing I can do about it.

 

[hrodbert696]

I think we're in a phase where the rules are getting rewritten. Not all in good ways, and not all in bad ways. To some extent, yes, there's going to be overreaction and oversensitivity. I heard a story recently of a (single) young guy who saw a girl in a coffee shop (also single, as far as he could tell at the time), thought she was pretty and walked over to strike up a conversation and ask her on a date. Something I would have considered perfectly ordinary, and not a co-worker or any such situation where there's any kind of power dynamic or anything. She freaked out as though he were Jeffrey Dahmer inviting her to his cave. She was offended and threatened that he dared to approach her in person, rather than on Match dot com or Tinder or something, which is apparently where normal people go to ask each other out. That's a "new normal" that hardly seems sensible to me - and I suspect it will prove unsustainable over the long run and people will settle down.

At the same time, the "old normal," for many since the sexual revolution if not long before, espoused the image of the man as someone who is supposed to be on perpetual sexual "offense" and the woman as on "defense." It was his job to score as much as he could and her responsibility to to decide how much to allow and how much to fend off. It's an inherently predatory framework, yet placed the blame entirely on her if she failed to fend him off. The current furor is attacking that culture, and I say good riddance.

So there are overreactions and extremes, in various directions. My expectation is that with some decency and common sense, and a little moral humility, people will for the most part figure out how to interact without biting each others' heads off.