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#notallmen

It is true that men should not have to tell them “not all men”

I suspect our actions should speak louder than words

I agree.
It's embarrassing stuff like this becomes 'popular'.
How to treat women was part of 'growing up 101' guys.
Just do it. You don't need some neato internet trend to make you feel better.
I believe most women will feel respected and honored, as they should be, if you just treat them right without running around telling them you aren't like the guys who don't get it.

-Mike
 
I’ve learned that we’re all guilty whether we intentionally did anything or not. The fact is, if you’re born male in America, especially a white male, you have a leg up whether you like it, or want it, or not. On average, everything will be easier for you than it will be for a woman, because that’s how society is built right now.

It doesn’t mean you’ve done anything wrong. It does mean you need to be aware of it. The vast majority of women I know understand that you didn’t ask for “male privilege” or “the patriarchy”—they just want you to realize that it exists.

And then there are the ******** who are sexist, *****-grabbing cavemen who ruin it for those of us who are just trying to get along and do the right thing.
 
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Does Al Bundy still have that NO'MAM thing going ?


No.

The show Married . . . With Children could not possibly be made, today. It would offend too many people. The people who are incapable of understanding that you can use fiction to illustrate a point and that you aren't necessarily advocating a behavior, just because it's being portrayed.

Honestly, every character on that show acts like a deranged ape. The whole point of it is to explore, through humor and satire, the possibilities of the depravities that ordinary humans might ibe capable of if we didnt listen to our conssmcinces
 
No.

The show Married . . . With Children could not possibly be made, today. It would offend too many people. The people who are incapable of understanding that you can use fiction to illustrate a point and that you aren't necessarily advocating a behavior, just because it's being portrayed.

Honestly, every character on that show acts like a deranged ape. The whole point of it is to explore, through humor and satire, the possibilities of the depravities that ordinary humans might ibe capable of if we didnt listen to our conssmcinces
Did you misspell conssmcinces on purpose? :D Kind of works with the whole deranged ape theme.
 
I am certain that I am misunderstanding this, but what the heck.

The only time "not all men" is an appropriate response is when ever someone argues that "all men... "

The only time any man ought to treat anyone disrespectfully is never, but sometimes they do. Good men sometimes do and when they do, they should be called out for their poor behavior. That man ought to be called out. Not all men. Because if all men are called out for the misbehavior of one man or two men or twenty men or... then it is appropriate to answer "not all men..."

Someone who says or hears "all men..." knows that it isn't so without being told so, just as much as someone says or hears "not all men..." knows that it is so without being told so.
 
No.

The show Married . . . With Children could not possibly be made, today. It would offend too many people. The people who are incapable of understanding that you can use fiction to illustrate a point and that you aren't necessarily advocating a behavior, just because it's being portrayed.

Honestly, every character on that show acts like a deranged ape. The whole point of it is to explore, through humor and satire, the possibilities of the depravities that ordinary humans might ibe capable of if we didnt listen to our conssmcinces

In the future people with a sense of humor will be relegated to secret society's

Shhhhhhhhh ! don't tell anyone I have all 11 seasons on DVD
 
No.

The show Married . . . With Children could not possibly be made, today. It would offend too many people. The people who are incapable of understanding that you can use fiction to illustrate a point and that you aren't necessarily advocating a behavior, just because it's being portrayed.

Honestly, every character on that show acts like a deranged ape. The whole point of it is to explore, through humor and satire, the possibilities of the depravities that ordinary humans might ibe capable of if we didnt listen to our conssmcinces
It could easily be made today, IMO...it just wouldn't be on any of the four major networks.
 
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I was in my late 20s when Not All Men became popular. I also work on a college campus so I see a lot of stereotypes against everyone one.

Everyone knows that not all men treat women badly, are abusers, rapists, etc.

But. I also acknowledge how hard it can be not to get defensive when so many women stereotype all men. If you don’t believe me, just go on your favorite social media site and search “men are trash” or “kill all men”.
 
A couple of thoughts;

One is that, at least the way my ethics and my sense of myself work, we are one far more certain ground when we accept that we are all at least potential offenders, in one way or another, if not in this area than in some other. Not just men but women as well, of course. The person who is in the most moral danger is the one who presumes himself to be in the right and immune to wrongdoing. There has been a tendency to denigrate the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I," but understood rightly, what it means is, "That person we're condemning could very easily have been me." The "not all men" reaction insists on the opposite; "I am nothing like that offensive person, don't blame me."

The other thing is that "not all men" and similar responses tend to segregate the offender off from the rest of us as something "other." We often turn to the language of mental illness to brand them - "that guy was a sociopath, a psychopath, insane." When we do that, in effect we deny their wrongdoing a rationale or motivation. There's no sense or logic to what that person did, it was just madness. I'm not mad, ergo it has nothing to do with me, and there's nothing I should be expected to do to change or prevent it. Some people are just psycho.

But the reality is that wrongdoing DOES have a rationale and a logic to it. Within a certain framework of values and assumptions about sex, gender, power, pleasure, status and so forth, harassing or assaulting a woman (or any number of other kinds of bad behavior) make PERFECT sense. The behavior isn't an inexplicable, irrational manifestation of mysterious mental illness, it's a strategy for what looks like "success" if you internalize certain values and assumptions and reject others. That framework comes from the culture. And we are ALL contributors to the culture. That means we all do bear some responsibility for whether we contribute to a culture that encourages or discourages the decision of "some men" to behave the ways that they do. That's a conversation we have to be having.

A few months before all the recent scandals broke, my drummer came back from a tour supporting a young female singer. It had turned into a nightmare. The manager/producer (and, if I recall right, bass player, I'm sorry to say) in the band turned out to have booked the tour largely as an opportunity to try and get into her pants, though she was half his age. I won't go into details but there were a number of things he tried to manipulate with the rooming situation and off-time to pressure her into being with him. Fortunately the other band members pushed back and supported her and finally the whole tour came to a crashing end with half the dates canceled and no one talking to each other.

My drummer came back and told us this story, and everyone was horrified, but honestly I think my horror at it was a little different from his. His reaction with disgust that anyone could even think this way. To me, though - also being a man twice this girl's age - I could completely see what he was thinking. It made absolute sense - a young, pretty, vulnerable girl, depending on you to make her dreams come true? That's not hard to see the paths his mind went down. To me the horror was not that he could think it in the first place, but that he wouldn't have known better and, by his age, had the maturity to set up the safeguards to prevent his behavior from following his fantasies.


This is an outstanding post. Thank you. The depth of your analysis is admirable. Certain individuals who may have been triggered by the OP would do well to read and consider how the example applies to them in real life.
 
I think it's great that women now have the power to accuse their assaulters and not only have their story be heard but believed. I also believe that power is currently being handled more like a machine gun instead of a high powered rifle.

A lot of men are losing their careers just from allegations of misconduct without any trial or due process taking place. That's a dangerous place to be in as a society.

Although I could once see how a movement like NAM could sidestep this important discussion involving assault on women, I now believe women are being heard and understood and it's important that we now find the balance to all of it.

And that's not just my view. A number of women in the media who have been very supportive of other women coming forward with their stories have been commenting on the need to find a way to handle all this. Not all cases of misconduct are the same or should be handled the same, and not everyone accused of doing wrong actually did anything wrong.

Again, it's about balance.
 
I think it's great that women now have the power to accuse their assaulters and not only have their story be heard but believed. I also believe that power is currently being handled more like a machine gun instead of a high powered rifle.

A lot of men are losing their careers just from allegations of misconduct without any trial or due process taking place. That's a dangerous place to be in as a society.

Although I could once see how a movement like NAM could sidestep this important discussion involving assault on women, I now believe women are being heard and understood and it's important that we now find the balance to all of it.

And that's not just my view. A number of women in the media who have been very supportive of other women coming forward with their stories have been commenting on the need to find a way to handle all this. Not all cases of misconduct are the same or should be handled the same, and not everyone accused of doing wrong actually did anything wrong.

Again, it's about balance.

I agree - balance and proportion. For a lot of these men, though, I wouldn't treat "losing a career" as an absolute. I suspect some of those ejected from office will do a repentance tour, maybe publish a book, and be either running for office again or acting as some kind of consultant or lobbyist a couple of years from now. You're not going to see Matt Lauer bagging groceries because he's broke and can't pay his bills.

It helps if we drop "not all men" and think "there but for the grace of God go I." We shouldn't partition the human race into irredeemable sociopaths and nice normal guys (like me! me!); then anyone who offended goes in the "sociopath" box and the only way to deal with them is to get rid of them, box them up, extinguish them. But if we take the other approach, the offender is a person who did wrong, and who needs to face proportionate consequences for their wrongdoing, but who can then be rehabilitated and forgiven and restored. You have to have a constructive endgame.

A lot of these issues have come up in discussions of campus rape situations, which I think may have been the incubator for the empowerment that we're seeing in the MeToo movement. There is a serious issue; innocent until proven guilty is a vital principle of the legal system and one we should NOT undermine. Part of what has enabled so much of this abuse has been its private nature, the "he said-she said" quality, that makes allegations impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

Legal penalties, however, are not the only ones. What we're seeing is a renewal of the mobilization of other kinds of penalties, social and economic, against offenders whose cases don't reach the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold. People's reputations can be tarnished, they can be ostracized, they can lose customers and employment, they can be expelled from school. Society has ways of penalizing offenders apart from the legal system, for which the threshold is lower than what would be needed to punish them with a prison sentence.

This brings issues of its own. In our individualistic and private society, we are unaccustomed to weighing the significance of reputation fully. "Infamy" was once a legal category of its own - the courts marked people of bad repute in the community, which affected their ability to, for instance, give testimony. We rankle - with reason - at the prospect of an individual being penalized owing to attacks on their reputation which it's very hard to defend against. The main way to defend against such attacks is mainly preventive; to revive a sense of "honor," to conduct one's life in such a transparent and forthright manner that any attempt to slur one's reputation would lack credibility. But that's an alien proposition in a culture that exalts private pleasures so highly.

At the end of the day, there's no realistic comprehensive solution to these problems. There will always be temptations to abuse and people who give in to those temptations, there will always be messy claims and counterclaims and too little evidence to be able to say without controversy what the truth is in every situation. We can improve our response, and I think we are, but it will never be perfect, and one way or another someone will wind up getting hurt.
 
I agree - balance and proportion. For a lot of these men, though, I wouldn't treat "losing a career" as an absolute. I suspect some of those ejected from office will do a repentance tour, maybe publish a book, and be either running for office again or acting as some kind of consultant or lobbyist a couple of years from now. You're not going to see Matt Lauer bagging groceries because he's broke and can't pay his bills.

Except that we aren’t just talking about famous people anymore. As the vitriol builds, these theme (and the expectations of handling set by the more famous cases you reference), real people will be really hurt by incorrect accusations.

It helps if we drop "not all men" and think "there but for the grace of God go I.

The vast majority of men have never needed grace to avoid being creeps.