Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
#notallmen
- Thread starter slobake
- Start date
No you don't."Tall Lives Matter"?
You have all the clothes to choose from, heck, you even have sections and even whole stores dedicated to being big.
Try having a size 7 shoe.
At shops Mens shoes start at 8 or 8 1/2 and kids stop at 6. It is No Mans Land.
And shirts are always out of sizes S and M but have a ton of L, XL, XXL and XXL.
Though I guess I am more comfortable on a plane and can drive any sports car with a top, so.
I didn't realize I was part of a privileged group.No you don't.
You have all the clothes to choose from, heck, you even have sections and even whole stores dedicated to being big.
Try having a size 7 shoe.
At shops Mens shoes start at 8 or 8 1/2 and kids stop at 6. It is No Mans Land.
And shirts are always out of sizes S and M but have a ton of L, XL, XXL and XXL.
Though I guess I am more comfortable on a plane and can drive any sports car with a top, so.
And I'll stop with the attempted humor because this thread has spawned an important discussion, and I don't want to derail it. My apologies.
@slobake and @two fingers , these are good points.
1. Here is what is known, widely and for a long time, about this dude: He invites young women new to AA over to his house after meetings and has sex with them. We know this because he brags a lot. We also know that we never see these women again. Whether his intentions are 'rape' or 'get some' is something that is only in his head. He apparently doesn't say 'Boy did she struggle but I won,' or 'She was easy' when he brags.
Guess what? I don't really care. His behavior is wrong, period. It is predatory. I don't know if you remember your first, second, or third AA meeting, but I remember mine. I was scared, vulnerable, lonely, and desperate for human connection. Although I suppose I could have said words that consented to sex, I know I wouldn't have been in my right mind enough to think through that whole thing. I was incapable of consent. This is why most 12-step groups take a very dim view of '13th stepping.' We're messed up when we get there, and some of us stay that way for a long time.
Yeah I think the guys should have warned her and him (differently), and at the beginning of their conversation they thought so too. Then they talked themselves out of it. Whether or not they would have been successful is another matter, but they are remiss for not making the effort.
I had a sponsor once who attempted to sexually assault me. I won that round, and that was it for our relationship. But it was some time later that I ran into a person my age at a meeting who told me that Roger was such a great guy, they were going to meetings together all over, having such great talks in the car on the way, blah blah blah. I got chills, and said, 'You are being groomed. He is a predator. Get away now.' 'Oh NOOOO he's such a wonderful-' 'No, seriously. It happened to me. It has happened to others. It will happen to you.' I found out later that it had.
Did my strong statements make a difference? Nope. Am I glad I made them? Yup. And if local dude tries this with me around, I will try to at least make sure the woman knows his history, even if it means getting punched. My more immediate plan is to talk to one of the guys who is quite involved in the business side of this meeting, and see if there's anything in the Group Conscience that might be helpful. I mean, this is not a one-time deal.
2. Although I agree to a point and in general, these didn't sound like jokes to me. There was no punchline, just disparaging comments about Women In General. An intentional comedy act or joke is one thing. This was not that context. I come from poor white folk, and I love me a good redneck joke. My Black neighbors told me I can't say that, and I got sad, so I'm still working through that one but am trying to make the changeover to 'cowboy.' The best jokes tell us something true about ourselves, and reveal pieces of our best and worst at once. Jokes aren't funny if there's not something behind them. But again, context and intent.
As for your last sentence, I don't think that's quite right. Change the word 'can' to 'will' and you might be closer.
And once again, here we are having a conversation about sexism etc between guys!
1. Here is what is known, widely and for a long time, about this dude: He invites young women new to AA over to his house after meetings and has sex with them. We know this because he brags a lot. We also know that we never see these women again. Whether his intentions are 'rape' or 'get some' is something that is only in his head. He apparently doesn't say 'Boy did she struggle but I won,' or 'She was easy' when he brags.
Guess what? I don't really care. His behavior is wrong, period. It is predatory. I don't know if you remember your first, second, or third AA meeting, but I remember mine. I was scared, vulnerable, lonely, and desperate for human connection. Although I suppose I could have said words that consented to sex, I know I wouldn't have been in my right mind enough to think through that whole thing. I was incapable of consent. This is why most 12-step groups take a very dim view of '13th stepping.' We're messed up when we get there, and some of us stay that way for a long time.
Yeah I think the guys should have warned her and him (differently), and at the beginning of their conversation they thought so too. Then they talked themselves out of it. Whether or not they would have been successful is another matter, but they are remiss for not making the effort.
I had a sponsor once who attempted to sexually assault me. I won that round, and that was it for our relationship. But it was some time later that I ran into a person my age at a meeting who told me that Roger was such a great guy, they were going to meetings together all over, having such great talks in the car on the way, blah blah blah. I got chills, and said, 'You are being groomed. He is a predator. Get away now.' 'Oh NOOOO he's such a wonderful-' 'No, seriously. It happened to me. It has happened to others. It will happen to you.' I found out later that it had.
Did my strong statements make a difference? Nope. Am I glad I made them? Yup. And if local dude tries this with me around, I will try to at least make sure the woman knows his history, even if it means getting punched. My more immediate plan is to talk to one of the guys who is quite involved in the business side of this meeting, and see if there's anything in the Group Conscience that might be helpful. I mean, this is not a one-time deal.
2. Although I agree to a point and in general, these didn't sound like jokes to me. There was no punchline, just disparaging comments about Women In General. An intentional comedy act or joke is one thing. This was not that context. I come from poor white folk, and I love me a good redneck joke. My Black neighbors told me I can't say that, and I got sad, so I'm still working through that one but am trying to make the changeover to 'cowboy.' The best jokes tell us something true about ourselves, and reveal pieces of our best and worst at once. Jokes aren't funny if there's not something behind them. But again, context and intent.
As for your last sentence, I don't think that's quite right. Change the word 'can' to 'will' and you might be closer.
And once again, here we are having a conversation about sexism etc between guys!
Good points about the guy being a predator going after venerable newcomers. I will remember this if I am in a situation like this again.
Did have something similar happen at church. Saw a guy I knew from AA. He started telling me about all the good looking women in our church and he wasn't just talking about admiring their beauty. I told him I would be keeping an eye on him and I told a lot of other leaders in the church to keep their eye on him. He left soon and as far as I know he never made a move on any of our young women.
I have seen this type of thing in churches before.
Well....maybe because I am older...but I still find women will be overtly friendly and responsive....and some aggressive and obvious that they like me.
Being a married man...i am friendly....but never make inappropriate overtures.
Being a married man...i am friendly....but never make inappropriate overtures.
That's good perspective, and I think you're right about the predatory assessment in that case.
Two Fingers didn't say it outright, but I've known someone asking someone else over for coffee or dessert to possibly mean, "do you want to come over and fool around." I kind of assume most people know that. It's possible these young women did too, but, given the environment and the fact they never came back, it seems like whatever they experienced was not positive.
Last edited:
Good discussion. I wish some of our bass playing sisters would give us their perspective.
It's unfortunate that this topic can't be discussed without going to extremes. "Not being a creep" and "morally pristine" aren't even on the same plane of discussion. This is why, IMHO, this topic is so difficult to discuss with real-world solutions.
Your longs posts are perhaps the only ones I will actually take the time to read.
If you think someone at these meetings is a predator and raping women, you best be calling the police to report it.
-Mike
And as soon as I have something that I have seen with my own eyes or heard from him directly instead of being told second- and third-hand, you betcha. Heck, I have a relative who may or may not have done something heinous. I'm not going to try to get him strung up on hearsay, but he's a braggart and I suspect will talk to me eventually. If he does, I am prepared to do whatever I can to put him away for the rest of his life.
The upshot of this thread and many others like it is don’t be a jerk, because if you are a jerk, then you bring whatever abuse you get on yourself.
It’s every thing you learned in kindergarten:
Don’t hit,
Share,
Don’t be mean,
Think before you act,
Play nicely and if you can’t then leave them alone.
It’s every thing you learned in kindergarten:
Don’t hit,
Share,
Don’t be mean,
Think before you act,
Play nicely and if you can’t then leave them alone.
It's a funny old world these days.
A couple of days back our Ramp Safety noticeboard at work featured a picture of one of our Duty Managers, a very attractive young lady with a liking for wearing short skirts, marshalling passengers across a roadway.
The message read 'Eyes On The Road, Lads!'
Beneath that a brief copy of an actual report of a vehicle collision caused by one of our fine young men becoming momentarily distracted by her legs and driving into a barrier.
Someone from HR made a rare appearance in the ramp break-room and saw this ... and had a total melt-down.
She tore down the poster, and started looking for cctv footage of whoever put it up, insisting that they'd be fired for sexual harrassment or something, all the while lecturing us all on how inappropriate this sort of thing is, and sending out about a dozen memos to all and sundry.
There followed a very irate phone call from the Duty Manager, who had, apparently totally approved the safety notice (in fact, it turns out she'd even posed the photo), telling the HR person to 1:apologise to everyone for being a damn fool and insulting us all, 2:get back to her nice warm office, never showing her face in a place of actual work again, and 3:grow up.
We had a quick whip-around and when our favourite Duty Manager showed up to work later that day, she was presented with a bunch of flowers, a bottle of wine and a box of chocolates.
Her response to that was her calling us all a bunch of fe***** eejits and to hug everyone in reach.
There's still some good women out there.
A couple of days back our Ramp Safety noticeboard at work featured a picture of one of our Duty Managers, a very attractive young lady with a liking for wearing short skirts, marshalling passengers across a roadway.
The message read 'Eyes On The Road, Lads!'
Beneath that a brief copy of an actual report of a vehicle collision caused by one of our fine young men becoming momentarily distracted by her legs and driving into a barrier.
Someone from HR made a rare appearance in the ramp break-room and saw this ... and had a total melt-down.
She tore down the poster, and started looking for cctv footage of whoever put it up, insisting that they'd be fired for sexual harrassment or something, all the while lecturing us all on how inappropriate this sort of thing is, and sending out about a dozen memos to all and sundry.
There followed a very irate phone call from the Duty Manager, who had, apparently totally approved the safety notice (in fact, it turns out she'd even posed the photo), telling the HR person to 1:apologise to everyone for being a damn fool and insulting us all, 2:get back to her nice warm office, never showing her face in a place of actual work again, and 3:grow up.
We had a quick whip-around and when our favourite Duty Manager showed up to work later that day, she was presented with a bunch of flowers, a bottle of wine and a box of chocolates.
Her response to that was her calling us all a bunch of fe***** eejits and to hug everyone in reach.
There's still some good women out there.
OK, here goes.
So what you are saying, jmattbassplaya, is that I am unable to invite a guy over for coffee without him thinking I want to fool around? That somehow doesn't seem fair. Why can't it be that I would have to say "Would you like to come over and fool around" to mean "would you like to come over and fool around", and inviting someone over for coffee would mean would you like to come over for some coffee? Who made these ridiculous rules?
Because most people are a tad bit more subtle than to ask someone to come over to fool around?
I hear what you are saying, it sucks and I don't like it either. Unfortunately that is the way some men think. Maybe discussions like this will help us guys see things in a new and better way.
Bassist4Eris
Frat-Pack Sympathizer
A very thought-provoking and intelligent thread!
Let me add a different perspective on the "all men" thing. I've heard men say things like this to justify their own behavior. A man will speak or act in a way that objectifies women, and blow it off with the idea that "we're all like that". I for one refuse to take part in that kind of thinking. Am I a saint? Of course not. But I at least try to be in the habit of calling myself out on my own BS.
On the subject of the objectification of women, this is deeply ingrained in our culture, and something we need to face up to and change. If you don't believe me, go ahead and start a thread about a female bassist on TB. Then count how many posts it takes until the discussion turns to how "hot" she is or isn't. I give you seven posts, max, before it happens. Annoying.
Let me add a different perspective on the "all men" thing. I've heard men say things like this to justify their own behavior. A man will speak or act in a way that objectifies women, and blow it off with the idea that "we're all like that". I for one refuse to take part in that kind of thinking. Am I a saint? Of course not. But I at least try to be in the habit of calling myself out on my own BS.
On the subject of the objectification of women, this is deeply ingrained in our culture, and something we need to face up to and change. If you don't believe me, go ahead and start a thread about a female bassist on TB. Then count how many posts it takes until the discussion turns to how "hot" she is or isn't. I give you seven posts, max, before it happens. Annoying.
A friend once poured me a cup of water when I was at his house. Then he bumped my arm and water spilled on the floor. He asked me, "why is there water on my floor?"
I answered, "because you bumped me."
He replied, "Sure, but why is there WATER on my floor? Why isn't it beer or coffee or juice?"
"I guess that's because there was water in the cup when I got bumped."
Most people don't go around making huge messes. Most people's drinks stay in their cups. Most of the time we don't even know what's in other people's cups - we may not even think too hard about what's in our own - because life isn't giving us any bumps that would make what's inside spill out. Or sometimes we manage to only let a couple of drops slip out but not the whole extreme catastrophic splash. This time.
I have never raped a woman, I have never killed anybody. I'm mentally stable and most would say I'm a pretty decent guy. I have done things I'm not proud of, though. And when I'm brutally honest with myself, and when I think hard about the things I have done, and what I was thinking, and then I think about the things I HAVEN'T done and what thinking led me away from the more horrible possibilities, I realize that there can be a very very fine line between being a decent guy and being a monster. Sometimes all that really stopped me from something I would regret forever is lack of opportunity or a failure of nerve, not moral virtue or rational control of my impulses.
Maybe I'm unusual. Maybe most people don't find much moral struggle in life, and doing the right thing, every time, comes easily and naturally to them. But then, maybe most people's hidden inner lives are more like mine, and what seems like common decency is a choice, and sometimes a struggle.
If that's true, then what I'm talking about are NOT extremes. The OUTCOMES are extreme, but inside, in his urges and motivations, the predator is not a fringe type who has nothing to do with the rest of us decent people. He's only extreme in that he had the opportunity, he had the nerve, and he lacked the humility, the sense of his own danger, to realize he needed to set safeguards against his own worst impulses.
The reason I object to the characterization of the "creep" as an extreme type, is that doing so dulls our sense of moral self-awareness; it lulls us into complacency that we could never possibly do what he does. There is no need to be alert, there is no need to set safeguards on ourselves, because we couldn't possibly do anything like that, we're the decent people. We can keep telling ourselves that right up until the moment that we get "bumped" by an unusual circumstance, an opportunity we don't usually get, a temptation we don't normally encounter, and then whatever is really in our cups comes spilling out. That complacency, in my opinion, is the greatest danger.
A while ago I was in a cover band with a female singer whom I found very attractive. She wanted to improve my ability to sing backups and invited me to her house for lessons. Believe me, the possibility definitely occurred to me to think of those visits as having some ulterior motive other than singing lessons. But she never made any overture to that effect, and I determined to set that possibility aside and focus on the task at hand. Nothing inappropriate ever happened, and after I got to know her better I lost any prurient interest, frankly.
I think the thing is that so much is context and subtext. The whole "courting" process, if you could call it that, rests on ambiguities, dropping hints and creating opportunities and seeing if the other person picks up on it and how they reciprocate. Sometimes a particular "code" gets so widespread that its meaning is crystal clear. Back in the 70s it was inviting someone up to see your "etchings." Who actually has etchings in their apartment to show people? So maybe, sometimes, inviting someone to your home for coffee COULD suggest another kind of invitation.
This is not to disagree with you at all. I think @jmattbassplaya may have overstated it by suggesting that inviting someone over for coffee must be a sexual invitation. But the way the whole process works is that it could be. The invitee might wonder if they're being invited for more; they might drop a counter hint, hopefully subtle and inoffensive, to see if the inviter indeed meant to offer something other than coffee; and they had better notice if that hint does not get picked up and encouraged.
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
What I am finding out with regards to playing as I grow older
- Latest: Admiral Akbar
-
