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#notallmen

I never heard of the expression "not all men" before this morning. It is something for me to consider before I open my mouth. In fact, I think some of things I have bolded below in the second and third paragraphs are good things to remember in any conversation.
I know we are mostly men here but the recent headlines about sexual harassment affects us all, men and women alike. I am still pondering about how I treat women and if there is anything I can do better.
At first I was annoyed by this and thought it was stereotyping men, but as I kept reading it made more sense to me.
I know we can talk about this without anyone getting smug and self righteous, we are bassists right. I usually find that folks who are the most indignant and above the rest of us unwashed masses are the same people who have much to hide. Sometimes they don't even realize it.
Here is what it says on Wikipedia:


#NotAllMen
is a feminist internet meme. It is a shortened hashtag version of the phrase not all men are like that, sometimes abbreviated NAMALT.

A Time magazine article on the subject states that "Not all men" was previously stated as an object of frustration, but in early 2014 it became usually used as an object of mockery. Intended to counter generalizations about men's behavior, the phrase has been criticized for deflecting conversations from uncomfortable topics, such as sexual assault. ...




As Kelsey McKinney of Invalid Link Removed states, "The phrase has been reappropriated by feminists and turned into a meme meant to parody its pervasiveness and bad faith." #NotAllMen-related memes include references to Aquaman, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, and the Kool Aid Man crashing through a wall to exclaim "not all men". An explanation of the NotAllMen hashtag came from Hillary Di Menna of This Magazine, who claimed that: "Saying 'not all men' is not helpful. We need to listen and we need to reflect." Slate Magazine writer Phil Plait wrote that the hashtag was

not an unexpected response. However, it's also not a helpful one. Why is it not helpful to say "not all men are like that"? For lots of reasons. For one, women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent. They don't need you to tell them. Second, it's defensive. When people are defensive, they aren't listening to the other person; they're busy thinking of ways to defend themselves. I watched this happen on Twitter, over and again. Third, the people saying it aren't furthering the conversation, they're sidetracking it. The discussion isn't about the men who aren't a problem. (Though, I'll note, it can be. I'll get back to that.) Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand, try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying. Fourth—and this is important, so listen carefully—when a woman is walking down the street, or on a blind date, or, yes, in an elevator alone, she doesn't know which group you're in. You might be the potential best guy ever in the history of history, but there's no way for her to know that. A fraction of men out there are most definitely not in that group. Which are you? Inside your head you know, but outside your head it's impossible to.

In a differing opinion, India Times writer Sumeet Keswani writes that the statement "does not serve to derail the feminism movement; it seeks to draw the line between feminism and misandry."


NotAllMen - Wikipedia
 
This probably won't go well. The warriors will come out to slay all the dragons & there will be fighting.
I started a thread in a similar vein & ironically was attacked by the warriors who actually assumed I meant it the other way around & even quoted stuff from other threads to call me out as a sexist.
Maybe you'll fare better than I did.
 
This probably won't go well. The warriors will come out to slay all the dragons & there will be fighting.
I started a thread in a similar vein & ironically was attacked by the warriors who actually assumed I meant it the other way around & even quoted stuff from other threads to call me out as a sexist.
Maybe you'll fare better than I did.
I hear you, it is a sensitive subject. I still have hope we can to this. I hope that if someone comes here with attitude that others (especially me) will resist the temptation to respond in kind with our own attitude. Can we rise above the fray?
 
This probably won't go well. The warriors will come out to slay all the dragons & there will be fighting.
My thread about calling women "girls" went pretty badly, as well as any mention ever of girl as a substitute for woman.

You're probably correct about this not going well, but I think it's a good opportunity for many of us to reevaluate the things we say or simply how we say them.
 
I do not intend to change what I say or how I say it based on the biased rant of any specific group.
And now you have offended me. I insist you edit your post and make it nicer so that it doesn't offend my specific group's delicate sensibilities; otherwise, you have a biased rant coming your way.


Is it clear that my post is meant to be humorous, or should I add a smiley?
 
I'll answer in a private message.
Okay, I understand. I hope I have not given the indication that it is not okay to disagree here. We may not always agree but I respect who you are and hope to practice what I preach and LISTEN to what you have to say. It is good for me to understand where others are coming from.
 
Okay, I understand. I hope I have not given the indication that it is not okay to disagree here. We may not always agree but I respect who you are and hope to practice what I preach and LISTEN to what you have to say. It is good for me to understand where others are coming from.
It isn't you,@slobake, it is whomever may get their feelings hurt and click on "report"
 
A couple of thoughts;

One is that, at least the way my ethics and my sense of myself work, we are one far more certain ground when we accept that we are all at least potential offenders, in one way or another, if not in this area than in some other. Not just men but women as well, of course. The person who is in the most moral danger is the one who presumes himself to be in the right and immune to wrongdoing. There has been a tendency to denigrate the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I," but understood rightly, what it means is, "That person we're condemning could very easily have been me." The "not all men" reaction insists on the opposite; "I am nothing like that offensive person, don't blame me."

The other thing is that "not all men" and similar responses tend to segregate the offender off from the rest of us as something "other." We often turn to the language of mental illness to brand them - "that guy was a sociopath, a psychopath, insane." When we do that, in effect we deny their wrongdoing a rationale or motivation. There's no sense or logic to what that person did, it was just madness. I'm not mad, ergo it has nothing to do with me, and there's nothing I should be expected to do to change or prevent it. Some people are just psycho.

But the reality is that wrongdoing DOES have a rationale and a logic to it. Within a certain framework of values and assumptions about sex, gender, power, pleasure, status and so forth, harassing or assaulting a woman (or any number of other kinds of bad behavior) make PERFECT sense. The behavior isn't an inexplicable, irrational manifestation of mysterious mental illness, it's a strategy for what looks like "success" if you internalize certain values and assumptions and reject others. That framework comes from the culture. And we are ALL contributors to the culture. That means we all do bear some responsibility for whether we contribute to a culture that encourages or discourages the decision of "some men" to behave the ways that they do. That's a conversation we have to be having.

A few months before all the recent scandals broke, my drummer came back from a tour supporting a young female singer. It had turned into a nightmare. The manager/producer (and, if I recall right, bass player, I'm sorry to say) in the band turned out to have booked the tour largely as an opportunity to try and get into her pants, though she was half his age. I won't go into details but there were a number of things he tried to manipulate with the rooming situation and off-time to pressure her into being with him. Fortunately the other band members pushed back and supported her and finally the whole tour came to a crashing end with half the dates canceled and no one talking to each other.

My drummer came back and told us this story, and everyone was horrified, but honestly I think my horror at it was a little different from his. His reaction with disgust that anyone could even think this way. To me, though - also being a man twice this girl's age - I could completely see what he was thinking. It made absolute sense - a young, pretty, vulnerable girl, depending on you to make her dreams come true? That's not hard to see the paths his mind went down. To me the horror was not that he could think it in the first place, but that he wouldn't have known better and, by his age, had the maturity to set up the safeguards to prevent his behavior from following his fantasies.