Double Bass NS Design NXT Megathread

[donotfret]

Thanks for the replies! I already play upright, I was just kind of wanting to know what you guys would choose. The thing that worries me about the used CR5M, is if it has other issues. IMO, the scale of the bass keeps it from sounding like a fretless electric. Think Eberhard Weber vs Jaco. Very different to my ears.
Anyway, what would you do?

I'd go with the NXT. It doesn't sound like you will need the extra options, so it's probably not worth taking a risk about the state of the CR.

I don't want to reply in too much detail about the fretless sound in order to not derail the thread, just a suggestion to listen to some of the stuff Tony Levin does with the NS Design EUBs. I do think it depends a lot how you set it up. Eberhard Weber's sound is not close to a bass guitar, but he never tried very hard to my knowledge.

 

[FritzM]

Thank you. Well, the CR5M is for sale here in the classified section. The guy selling it is a long time and respected member of the forum.
I do have another question though. I'm assuming to play arco, the bass needs to be in full piezo position. Is this correct?
If so, it might make more sense to get a new NXT.

 

[Garret Graves]

Thank you. Well, the CR5M is for sale here in the classified section. The guy selling it is a long time and respected member of the forum.
I do have another question though. I'm assuming to play arco, the bass needs to be in full piezo position. Is this correct?
If so, it might make more sense to get a new NXT.

Im very impressed with the arco mode on NXT myself, bowing sounds beautiful. What little sample recording I did, I found that in Pizz mode, it sounds very close to fretless electric bass guitar, (or an upright with underwood pickup maybe) having a lot of sustain. In Arco mode, its more of a traditional upright sound when playing pizzicato. It is a versatile sound, very happy with it!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I would not mix a medium Spiro high C with downtuned Solo Spiros, too much tension difference.
Why won't you use either the NS Electric or NS Traditionals?
Have a look into my Excel file that you can download from my Dropbox (Link in signature).

A magnetic pickup doesn't work well with the bow. But if music gets rather loud mixing in some magnetic pickup makes the sounder stronger.
BTW, Eberhard Weber used magnetic and piezo pickups on his EUB. But his one has a vibrating top that helps with arco. A solid body doesn't start the string with the bow as nice as an instrument with a resonating body (OTOH a solid body is more feedback resistant).
Eberhard Weber's sound comes mainly from modulated short delay lines with a bit of reverb sometimes. And solo he often used a looper (frozen feedback delay line).

If the CR is technically OK and needs no or hardly any maintenance I would get that one. An internal preamp delivers a better sound than passive electronics that follow directly high impedance piezos. But doesn't have the NXTaX have at least a built-in impedance buffer that could be charged in a minute?
That would save the sound quality and you only need to charge quickly in case you forgot to do that at home before the soundcheck/rehearsal.

 

[donotfret]

I would not mix a medium Spiro high C with downtuned Solo Spiros, too much tension difference.
Why won't you use either the NS Electric or NS Traditionals?

I guess the NS Electric (or Contemporary) probably won't have the intended sound and feel. I've also read that they don't work well with the bow (can't tell myself because I've never tried). I do agree though on the Traditionals, which are just Helicores at NS size, so no fuss dealing with the extra length. It might be worth giving them a shot before trying other strings.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I think the NS Electric are more or less of a bass guitar construction type. They may not bow as easy as the Traditionals, but it should be possible. But they might be very bright and I can imagine that any bowing flaws would be easily audible.

The Traditionals should have a sustain similar of a hybrid string on a DB, since the sustain is longer on solid body EUBs.

Please look into the tension data in my Excel file, see how much the tension differs on solo string in pitch and downtuned to orchestral tuning. Tune down your string(s) by a halftone or a wholetone and feel the tension difference. Then have a look at the tension data again what you might find acceptable in a mixed set and what is not.
I showed you the tools, but you do need to do the work...

I have a lot of experience with high C strings (about 15 or 16, I think). Some of them are no longer available, some are expensive, a lot have a high tension like the Spiro.
You should find something that fits your taste for the highest strings first, best nothing mixed there and then you can decide if you want a whole set or mix with some sort of Spiros on A and E or E only.
The only other strings that I know that may fit what you want are Pyramid Soloflex. They have a bit less tension than Spiro medium 4/4, but not that much, and need to be custom ordered from the factory in Germany. They are brighter than downtuned Spiro Solos, but bow well (at least as well as Spiros).
My basic problem with high C steel core strings is that they are thin (and don't stretch well) and cut into the finger, therefor are had to press down onto the fingerboard. The high tension of steel strings doesn't make it easier. So I switched to synthetic core strings which are thicker on the higher strings and stretchier so they are easy to play. Tension is often a bit less than steel strings, but the stretchier core makes them still easy to press down.
The only cure for steel core strings would be to make the action very low (or get low tension steel core strings which are rare, the NS strings are in that category), but then you hardly can grab the string when pizzed. Then you rather touch the string than be able to pull it which gives less attack.
In the end you need to try until you are satisfied, but if you want a high C you will face a lot of problems.

 

[Garret Graves]

I thought that the NS NXT shipped with NS Contemporary strings? If so, then to my ears they sound great with the bow in Arco mode. I do want to get a set of NS traditionals eventually to compare. One thing I can’t imagine is anyone saying that the Arco sound is terrible or unusable from the out of box NXT. It’s been years since I’ve had a DB, but I used to play in orchestras and chamber groups in college, I know how to get around a bit with the bow. That being said, I’m not yet back to speed, nor have I really tried breaking out any fast passages. The properly rosined bow grabs and speaks with authority low and high with the out of box NXT strings, IMO

 

[FritzM]

Are the Traditional's Helicore Hybrids or Helicore orchestral? I had a great experience with the Hybrids on my upright, not so good with the orchestral.

 

[monkeyland]

Are the Traditional's Helicore Hybrids or Helicore orchestral? I had a great experience with the Hybrids on my upright, not so good with the orchestral.

From what I understand is that they are modeled after the orchestral. Keep in mind that a dark string on an acoustic upright will not be quite as dark on the NS.

I typically play spirocore on my upright and have settled on the NS traditional on the NXT

 

[FritzM]

And now for the million dollar question, does arco sound the same on the NXT5 and the CR5M? They both use the same piezo pickup for both, right?

 

[Mark Gollihur]

Are the Traditional's Helicore Hybrids or Helicore orchestral? I had a great experience with the Hybrids on my upright, not so good with the orchestral.

I have it direct from the manufacturer - they are the Orchestral Helicores, only with the excess "afterlength" silk portion of the strings removed (shortened), so the overall length suits the NS bass with the ball ends just below the bridge.

And now for the million dollar question, does arco sound the same on the NXT5 and the CR5M? They both use the same piezo pickup for both, right?

Yes and no. Same essential pickup, different electronics. So it's sort of like asking, "Does arco on my bass sound the same, using my Realist pickup, when I add a Fishman Platinum Pro preamp as it does when I run straight into the input of my amp?" Both may sound GOOD, but they may sound a bit different.

One thing I can’t imagine is anyone saying that the Arco sound is terrible or unusable from the out of box NXT. The properly rosined bow grabs and speaks with authority low and high with the out of box NXT strings, IMO

The stock strings can be bowed, but - as folks earlier in the thread have mentioned - the Contemporary strings are basically super-long-scale flatwound bass guitar strings. They're not ideal; serious arco players will usually prefer the Traditionals, or even a "real" upright bass string strung up the back.

 

[FritzM]

So, on the CR5M the piezo is running through internal preamp? This would make a difference as the piezo is not stand alone.

 

[ArtechnikA]

So, on the CR5M the piezo is running through internal preamp? This would make a difference as the piezo is not stand alone.

CR5M has no internal preamp; the mag pickups work like standard passive EBG. Piezo still needs a high impedance pre for best results.

 

[FritzM]

I guess what I'm getting at is an NXT and a nice pre would be far less expensive than a CR series.
My decision to make is:
used NXT5 = $1000
used cr5m = $2000

I just want to make the right choice.

 

[Mark Gollihur]

CR5M has no internal preamp; the mag pickups work like standard passive EBG.

Sorry to contradict you, but that is absolutely NOT TRUE.

The CR5M has an internal preamp with active Treble and Bass controls, active blend between Mag and Piezo, and active blend between polar modes. The internal preamp buffers the high impedance of the piezo pickups, so no additional external preamp is needed. Additionally, the magnetic pickups are made by EMG. The bass requires 9v batteries for operation.
TL;DR: It is an active system, meaning it has a preamp.

The NXTa has a "buffer" - which means it does provide appropriate buffering, but the electronics (treble roll off, volume) are passive. So you have the benefit of the piezo buffer, but it's not a true "preamp" in the same sense of the word. It requires that you recharge the system for a minute or so, prior to play, for 18 hours of play time. You can also pull out the volume knob to bypass the buffer and play in passive mode.

 

[monkeyland]

Do you want the magnetic pickup?
Do you care about the upgraded stand and bag?

That’s where it lies to me.

 

[Mark Gollihur]

Here's something I wrote in our newsletter a number of years ago, hope it provides some assistance:


NXT vs CR
Why Would You Spend the Extra Money for the CR?

That's a good question. Here's some food for thought.

• For one, the CR model incorporates an active preamp. Aside from adding real active EQ controls (the NXT has only a passive treble roll-off), it also provides better control over the Polar pickup - it has a blend knob, rather than the simple switch of the NXT.
• The magnetic pickups, made by EMG, offer a surprisingly useful timbre - not just "electric" sounding, they give a nice, warm-bodied undertone to the pizz sound - and can even pitch in to reduce the scratchiness of arco. And you can run 100% magnetic for a more rock-and-roll sort of tone.
  
• The accessories are considerably nicer. The NXT comes with a lightweight tripod stand and a decent bag. Nice stuff, sure - but the stand is of a simple design and has some plastic parts. The CR model comes with an ALL STEEL stand, similar to double-braced drum hardware, and is considerably more adjustable (you can adjust tilt of the instrument, tilt of the stand, overall height, lean, and other factors) and much heavier-duty. Sold separately, the stand is almost $200. You also get a deluxe, very nice gig bag with embroidered logo - a nice upgrade from the one included with the NXT.
• The fit and finish of the CR model is a considerable upgrade from the NXT; again, the NXT is no slouch, but if you play the basses back to back, you'll definitely notice a difference in quality. A common comparison: Play a Fender Mexican-made "Standard" P-Bass - it's a nice bass, perfectly usable in a professional gigging situation. Now, grab a hold of an "American Deluxe" P-Bass. Yeah, you can feel the difference. Joints are a bit tighter, the wood is better quality, the hardware is better, the pickups are of better quality, the wiring is done better... So yeah, it's kind of like that.
• Speaking of hardware, you get genuine Schaller tuning machines on this bass - the NXT uses inexpensive Asian-made tuners, which many have felt is a weak point that requires replacement (about $100 for a good set of Hipshots).
• It is, to most, a better looking bass as well - natural wood veneer, high-quality finish - it's just... money.

So, you can buy an NXT, and put $600-900 into making it "perfect" (around $200 for the upgraded tripod, $140 for the upgraded bag, $100-200 for replacement tuners, $150-300 for an outboard preamp), or you can just get the CR and not have to deal with modifications and extra "stuff."

 

[FritzM]

Thanks Mark,
I think this one is actually crucial:

• The magnetic pickups, made by EMG, offer a surprisingly useful timbre - not just "electric" sounding, they give a nice, warm-bodied undertone to the pizz sound - and can even pitch in to reduce the scratchiness of arco.

I have noticed that on some of the piezo only instruments, the instrument loses something in higher registers. Having the magnetic pickups would cure that.
This really helps, thank you!

 

[ArtechnikA]

Sorry to contradict you, but that is absolutely NOT TRUE.

Thank you for the correction.

 

[Mark Gollihur]

Thank you for the correction.

Sorry if the bold makes it seem harsh, I realize now that it might. That was done for attention, not snark.