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Official Ampeg Portaflex Club

#7,681
JimmyM said:
I still go with the CTS on all samples. Totally thought I was hearing a 60's B-15, though. Didn't know it was a 73. The high end threw me. Then I realized you were using LaBellas...now it makes more sense to me ;) For strings that are that thuddy, they sure are bright. I'm used to Chromes, which are almost all mids by comparison.

Dude, I'm almost ready to buy a 421a and send it to you just so we can hear how it sounds in comparison. Almost. And then I look at the bank account and I quickly forget about it ;)
Click to expand...

Well, Here's The Thing, If Someone Will Explain The In's and Out's Of Using Sound Cloud, I have a 421 8H (Series II) that I can post. It's definitely brighter and has better midrange definition than the JBL D140F.
The 421A's had Aluminum Voice Coil's, while the 421 8H's had Copper ones, and D130's had Aluminum voice coils? That evidently gives you better midrange definition. Another interesting thing, is that CTS, who eventually became Eminence, had a better handle on building speakers for the B-15's in the 60's, that were cheaper and sounded better. So even back then, CTS/ Eminence was a major player in customizing speakers for the needs of specific manufactures. There eventually coming out, as the biggest custom speaker company in the U.S. wasn't a fluke. That's interesting. Just my take though.

Ric
 
#7,682
All you need for Soundcloud is to add the usual tags like an IMG tag...use "[ soundcloud ]" at the beginning of the URL, and ""[/ soundcloud ]" at the end, and omit the spaces that I included so you could see what was going on. Oh, and you need the Soundcloud account of course ;)
 
#7,683
JimmyM said:
All you need for Soundcloud is to add the usual tags like an IMG tag...use "[ soundcloud ]" at the beginning of the URL, and ""[/ soundcloud ]" at the end, and omit the spaces that I included so you could see what was going on. Oh, and you need the Soundcloud account of course ;)
Click to expand...

Jimmy,
Ok, I signed up, and with your info I can do a little sample tomorrow.

Ric
 
#7,685
Thanks to everyone for listening, giving feedback and great comments! It's really appreciated.

beans-on-toast said:
These demos are really neat! A pleasure to listen to. I'm kind of surprised by what I hear. I like them all and I think there is place for each speaker. I find that it's important to listen with a good set of headphones. I think that with a little EQ and volume adjustment, I would take any of them.

The CTS is really nice. It is well rounded, good for low end but articulate in the high end. There's a nice attack when the note is played that I don't hear from the other two speakers. As presented, I like it the most.

The JBL is smoother, more even over the entire range but seems to lack a bit of clarity that the others have. It sounds a little compressed. I think that it open up if the volume were cranked more.

The Weber is a big surprise. It is very close to the CTS, it lacks the high end on the attack. I think that with a little EQ or volume adjustment, the Weber can sound as good as the CTS. The volume of the Weber is much lower through my computer speakers. It sounds fine with the headphones. Makes me wonder if people are turned off by the Weber because the level may be lower. Getting an 8 ohm version would make a difference I think.
Click to expand...

Well, David, to me you really nailed it through and through. I agree with very word here.
I was interested trying the Weber as a modern comparison to the two vintage speakers, and also to try the B15 with a 4ohms load, as I heard Oliver recommended it (although maybe he was only speaking for the 60's models?).
I was surprised by how good it sounded, especially in the lows, although as you stated, it lacks the high end clarity of the CTS to enhance the attack and get really punchy. It was indeed a bit quieter, and I will test it again with more gain and a little Eq, to hear its guts.

As for the JBL, I hope it will continue to open up as it breaks in, for I think it has been almost unused since 69, and I haven't played it much since I got it.

JimmyM said:
I still go with the CTS on all samples. Totally thought I was hearing a 60's B-15, though. Didn't know it was a 73. The high end threw me. Then I realized you were using LaBellas...now it makes more sense to me ;) For strings that are that thuddy, they sure are bright. I'm used to Chromes, which are almost all mids by comparison.

Dude, I'm almost ready to buy a 421a and send it to you just so we can hear how it sounds in comparison. Almost. And then I look at the bank account and I quickly forget about it ;)
Click to expand...

Well thanks Jimmy, that's a nice thought! Your bank account and mine must be linked to the same drilled pipe somewhere.
You can bring a 421a when you come visiting Paris, I'll make it up to you in Champagne ;)
Anyway you're right about the strings, even though they're used, they keep a brightness that works well with the CTS high end.

Ric Vice said:
Well, Here's The Thing, If Someone Will Explain The In's and Out's Of Using Sound Cloud, I have a 421 8H (Series II) that I can post. It's definitely brighter and has better midrange definition than the JBL D140F.
The 421A's had Aluminum Voice Coil's, while the 421 8H's had Copper ones, and D130's had Aluminum voice coils? That evidently gives you better midrange definition. Another interesting thing, is that CTS, who eventually became Eminence, had a better handle on building speakers for the B-15's in the 60's, that were cheaper and sounded better. So even back then, CTS/ Eminence was a major player in customizing speakers for the needs of specific manufactures. There eventually coming out, as the biggest custom speaker company in the U.S. wasn't a fluke. That's interesting. Just my take though.

Ric
Click to expand...

Great! Really looking forward to hearing the 421a.
 
#7,686
Just finished my first studio session with my SB12. Just stuck a RE20 infront of the cab and used my Fenderish 62 J. Sounded good when doing line checks but blew me away when hearing it back with the rest of the tracks, it sat so well in the mix. I think the tracks are getting sent for mixing next week, so I'll post a track when I get it back. (A month or so?)

Thanks again for the help with the rattles...I am so excited to have a small tube amp to play when I don't feel like lugging around a full size rig. :)
 
#7,687
muljoe said:
Just finished my first studio session with my SB12. Just stuck a RE20 infront of the cab and used my Fenderish 62 J. Sounded good when doing line checks but blew me away when hearing it back with the rest of the tracks, it sat so well in the mix. I think the tracks are getting sent for mixing next week, so I'll post a track when I get it back. (A month or so?)

Thanks again for the help with the rattles...I am so excited to have a small tube amp to play when I don't feel like lugging around a full size rig. :)
Click to expand...

Sounds good!
How did you end up fixing the remaining rattle?
L plates? Glue?
I've got some rattle issues in my PF too, and I'm decided to investigate and try to fix them (better than sliding screwdrivers here and there between the tolex and the frame).
 
#7,688
nouroog said:
Great! Really looking forward to hearing the 421a.
Click to expand...

Nouroog

Actually, although the 421 8H Series II is the successor to the 421 A there is a significant difference in the voice coils as the 421 A has a aluminum one and the later 421 8H Series II has a copper coil. Ampeg always seemed partial to using speakers with an aluminum coli in their speakers for the B-15N series. The JBL D130 they used in the NC's had one and so does the Altec 421 A. I believe that by the time Altec had released the 421 8H Series I and Series II Ampeg had stopped production on everything, awaiting St. Louis Music to swoop in and save the day. I could be wrong about that though.

Ric
 
#7,689
nouroog said:
Sounds good!
How did you end up fixing the remaining rattle?
L plates? Glue?
I've got some rattle issues in my PF too, and I'm decided to investigate and try to fix them (better than sliding screwdrivers here and there between the tolex and the frame).
Click to expand...

There was one dry separation on one of the joints and I used an L plate but will eventually use glue for it. There was a loose screw in the head which obviously was an easy fix. The big rattle that cause me a lot of problems was the grill cloth. It was weird because when I would take the head off the cab, the rattle would go away, but as soon as I covered up the top of the cab (with the cab or something else), it would begin to rattle again. I took the grill off and stapled a thin piece of felt underneath the grill. There was still pretty good rattling going on. It was from the grill on the front (outside facing) side vibrating against the cab (the part of the grill that is unseen since it is covered by the overlap of the cab). I just stapled down all the loose parts of the grill and that eliminated all of the rattles for me. (I stapled the hell out of the front part of the grill) It was a really long and frustrating process since I took the cab apart 5-7 times, but completely worth it since I like to run a mic with it for live sound reinforcement and recording. And it looks like Frankenstein if you take the cab apart. I must have used 100 staples….totally worth the time but it was very tedious and frustrating for me.
 
#7,690
Ric Vice said:
Nouroog

Actually, although the 421 8H Series II is the successor to the 421 A there is a significant difference in the voice coils as the 421 A has a aluminum one and the later 421 8H Series II has a copper coil. Ampeg always seemed partial to using speakers with an aluminum coli in their speakers for the B-15N series. The JBL D130 they used in the NC's had one and so does the Altec 421 A. I believe that by the time Altec had released the 421 8H Series I and Series II Ampeg had stopped production on everything, awaiting St. Louis Music to swoop in and save the day. I could be wrong about that though.

Ric
Click to expand...

Thanks Ric I had missed that.
The D140F has a copper voice coil too, IIRC.
I'd be interesting to hear a D130 against the D140 and a 421a against the 421 8H.

muljoe said:
There was one dry separation on one of the joints and I used an L plate but will eventually use glue for it. There was a loose screw in the head which obviously was an easy fix. The big rattle that cause me a lot of problems was the grill cloth. It was weird because when I would take the head off the cab, the rattle would go away, but as soon as I covered up the top of the cab (with the cab or something else), it would begin to rattle again. I took the grill off and stapled a thin piece of felt underneath the grill. There was still pretty good rattling going on. It was from the grill on the front (outside facing) side vibrating against the cab (the part of the grill that is unseen since it is covered by the overlap of the cab). I just stapled down all the loose parts of the grill and that eliminated all of the rattles for me. (I stapled the hell out of the front part of the grill) It was a really long and frustrating process since I took the cab apart 5-7 times, but completely worth it since I like to run a mic with it for live sound reinforcement and recording. And it looks like Frankenstein if you take the cab apart. I must have used 100 staples….totally worth the time but it was very tedious and frustrating for me.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot muljoe, this will help me, I hope.
My main rattle is probably similar to the last one you describe, from the grill on the front.
I'm quite reluctant to take the cab completely apart, but I'm afraid I will have to do so, at least partially, to investigate and find a cure.
 
#7,691
Here's a little more B-15 porn for you guys.

IMG_0117.gif

IMG_0119.gif

IMG_0120.gif
 
#7,692
beans-on-toast said:
Mark, what about dying the back edge with ink before gluing the tolex down. On black tolex, I've used black india ink to color the white fabric. On curved joints, I've sanded back the tolex, removing the cloth and even a little vinyl to make them work better.
Click to expand...

David - For me it's not a big deal to just touch up the edges with a marker. The places where this occurs tends to be confined to the hand-hold cutouts, the left and right side of the top opening and the rounded edges of the lid. The white backing just tends to be something that I can be an old grump about because I really liked the SLM tolex. ;)

I'm not sure but I think I'm following what your're talking about with sanding the back of the tolex on curves. I never had much trouble tolexing over any of the radiused edges, but I have altered the way I do it now. A couple years ago I was watching the girl that was covering the Heritage B15s. She's been covering cabinets for a lot longer than I have and she does it day in and day out. I noticed she would run a heat gun over the tolex whenever she was going around a corner or radiused edge. She said the heat helps set the glue and makes the tolex more pliable, so I've starting doing it too. Now I just need to find a knife like she uses and I can pretend I'm as experienced as she is!
 
#7,693
Those kind of production ladies are worth their weight in gold. Any estimate as to how long it took her to cover a cabinet? Was she using a hot melt glue?

I've seen people use heat on the tolex. It seems to take some real skill. If it isn't done right, the vinyl can contract as it cools and pull away at the seam. I guess that the key is to not overheat and overstretch it.
 
#7,694
beans-on-toast said:
Those kind of production ladies are worth their weight in gold. Any estimate as to how long it took her to cover a cabinet? Was she using a hot melt glue?

I've seen people use heat on the tolex. It seems to take some real skill. If it isn't done right, the vinyl can contract as it cools and pull away at the seam. I guess that the key is to not overheat and overstretch it.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen tolex on the new cabs, but I did the tolex a bit different from the 60's, back then they used to overlap all pieces, probably because it was easy and fast in terms of production and most important, less waste of material. What I do now is overlap and cut right in the middle between edges, that way I'm able to join both edges avoiding overlap the tolex.

I bealive they use heat to mold, adjust or fix any issue in the tolex once the glue is all most dry in the wood.

The most important tips for doing it that way is:

1.- Do not stretch the tolex (never)
2.- Once you had apply the glue on the tolex let it dry for 15-20 minutes, maybe more?

* when you apply glue in the tolex, seems to stretch one inch maybe more, but as long you let it dry the tolex will recover about 60-70% of is original size, if you don't wait enough you will end cutting at the wrong spot and leaving visible joint in the cab once is completely dry. As I only use one piece of tolex I do one side at a time and wait one hour to proceed with the next side of the cabinet.

hope it helps.

This is some sort of view of the flat join tolex.

tolex_zps695d79d5.jpg


tolex2_zps9a1c1fb3.jpg
 
#7,695
Hey guys, I finally got around to putting some 6550's in the B-12XTC. The midrange is definitely more pronounced and defined with the stock 7027A even into squishy mild distortion (11-12 o'clock on the volume). The Aggie 6550 STR definitely have a more pronounced low end and fatten up more on the verge of overdrive. They move enough air that you can literally feel the difference between the tubes. The 6550 give more of that normal Ampeg "punch" while the 7027A have more of a midrange "cut" apt to fitting in a busy mix.

FWIW, the transformers stayed cool through this experiment. Now I'm off to tension the tube sockets and take a few pictures. :D

PS - Oh yeah, if you use metal base tubes like my 6550, don't touch them while it's on or powering down. They're can shock you. Just sayin'
 
#7,696
I just retensioned the sockets and put it back together. The 6550 could practically fall out after those 7027A.

It's a tight looking fit with the cage but the 6550 don't run very hot. I'll be leaving them in for a while. :)

IMG_0133.gif

IMG_0134.gif


Oh yeah... it also does a great baby SVT vibe with the CTS loaded Marshall 410. If I don't drag around the old PF 412, it'd be great for smaller gigs.

IMG_0135.gif
 
#7,699
xoir said:
I haven't seen tolex on the new cabs, but I did the tolex a bit different from the 60's, back then they used to overlap all pieces, probably because it was easy and fast in terms of production and most important, less waste of material. What I do now is overlap and cut right in the middle between edges, that way I'm able to join both edges avoiding overlap the tolex.

I bealive they use heat to mold, adjust or fix any issue in the tolex once the glue is all most dry in the wood.

The most important tips for doing it that way is:

1.- Do not stretch the tolex (never)
2.- Once you had apply the glue on the tolex let it dry for 15-20 minutes, maybe more?

* when you apply glue in the tolex, seems to stretch one inch maybe more, but as long you let it dry the tolex will recover about 60-70% of is original size, if you don't wait enough you will end cutting at the wrong spot and leaving visible joint in the cab once is completely dry. As I only use one piece of tolex I do one side at a time and wait one hour to proceed with the next side of the cabinet.
Click to expand...

Good points. All your cabinets look great. It takes me around two evenings to cover a cabinet. I like to take my time.

I think that the butt joints like you described is a much better way to go than the overlapping joints. It looks a lot better not to have the bumps. Yes, Ampeg did this to save time and the amount of tolex that they were using. Back then they were using hide glue which is very different than the products used today. You applied the glue and had a short time to get the tolex onto the amp. So they worked fast and the process was designed to have the cabinet covered as quickly as possible.

The Fender tweed cabinets have some difficult curves. The back panels have circles or oblong holes that can be challenging. Much like the Marshall below but larger in size.



One thing that I find helps is to lay the tolex down on a flat surface under the sun to heat it a little and make it soft before starting to work with it.

Otherwise all it takes is lots and lots of practice and some good luck. :p
 

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