I've been waiting to get a BF cab but stupid expenses keep coming up. New tires on two cars, new A/C system. I was all set on a BB2 then an SC then a 210. I think I might eventually end up with an SC or BB2 and a 210 or even a 410 to run with my Super Bassman. The only one I've heard in person is a BB2 and I was blown away.
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Official Barefaced Bass Cab Club
- Thread starter Stumbo
- Start date
Looking at my BB2 and 210 with the Demeter perched on it. I think I'll finish up my chores and plug in
Four 10 with Super Bassman is absolute bliss. And it really shows up the versatility of the Four 10. The cab really responds to the Fender preamp both subtly and very obviously too.
I have two BB2's and I can't recommend them enough. They will give you thunderous bottom and clean highs and everything in between. The BB2 is not a large cab and easy to carry, so don't worry if you are trying to go light.
I just got a Fender MIA P bass. The combo of the P bass, Mesa Boogie Subway D800 head, and the BB2's produce tones that sound like very expensive Scotch tastes. Smooth and full bodied.
I just got a Fender MIA P bass. The combo of the P bass, Mesa Boogie Subway D800 head, and the BB2's produce tones that sound like very expensive Scotch tastes. Smooth and full bodied.
Question on retro cab impedance, for purposes of stack building. I know this has been discussed but wondering if any thinking has advanced and make sure I have it all right. IIRC the drivers are 6 ohm? No disrespect intended in the air-quotes in the following, just trying to make sure i understand. Manufacturer spec in quotes, typical driver math in parens.
The 210 is "12 or 4" (12 or 3)
The 410 is "8 or 2" (6 or 1.5)
The 610 is "4" (4)
The 810 is "4" (3)
All with the same driver ....
If I got an "8ohm" 410 and put it in parallel with a "12 ohm" 410, that is electrically the same as a "4 ohm" 610 (6 + 12).
And two "4 ohm" 210s in parallel is the same as a "2 ohm" 410.
Asking because I have a 4 ohm 210 and adding a second to use with my DB751 (975 watts at 2 ohms) is really tempting. But I don't want to blow up my head if its actually a 1.5 ohm load ... do we have enough miles on these cabs now to be sure? I could also go with both cabs at 12 ohms, giving 6/aka"8" and get 600ish watts from the head. But then I can't get the max from one cab with a lower power head ...
Pardon my OCD.
The 210 is "12 or 4" (12 or 3)
The 410 is "8 or 2" (6 or 1.5)
The 610 is "4" (4)
The 810 is "4" (3)
All with the same driver ....
If I got an "8ohm" 410 and put it in parallel with a "12 ohm" 410, that is electrically the same as a "4 ohm" 610 (6 + 12).
And two "4 ohm" 210s in parallel is the same as a "2 ohm" 410.
Asking because I have a 4 ohm 210 and adding a second to use with my DB751 (975 watts at 2 ohms) is really tempting. But I don't want to blow up my head if its actually a 1.5 ohm load ... do we have enough miles on these cabs now to be sure? I could also go with both cabs at 12 ohms, giving 6/aka"8" and get 600ish watts from the head. But then I can't get the max from one cab with a lower power head ...
Pardon my OCD.
Forgot a combo:
210 (3/"4") + 110 (6/"8") = 2/"2.6" and an extra-bright sound from the new ratio of LPF'd vs full range drivers.
210 (3/"4") + 110 (6/"8") = 2/"2.6" and an extra-bright sound from the new ratio of LPF'd vs full range drivers.
I'm not an authority but I believe the Ohm rating can be changed on these using a different wiring loom.
This has been addressed earlier in the thread but a direct answer was not forthcoming. I believe I posted a query about it too. I don't think there are different wiring looms used and I think the ohms rating can be referred to as "nominal" (which used to be quite common). I also remember reading once about something like acoustic impedance, which referred to what happens to a speaker speaker once it is in a cabinet?????? Maybe the resistance of the air in the cabinet adds to the impedance??I suspect the same identical bass driver is used in each cabinet. This is all a bit beyond me, but I do trust that if Alex says that a speaker can be used with an amp matched to his impedance rating then he is right and it is safe.
alexclaber
Commercial User
This is a speaker impedance graph for a hi-fi speaker:
The solid line is the impedance magnitude, the dashed line is the impedance phase. This speaker has relatively weak magnets compared to those found in modern bass cabs or PA speakers, so the impedance peaks are relatively low - in an 8 ohm bass or PA cab the peaks can reach around 100 ohm. The manufacturer of this speaker gives it an 8 ohm nominal impedance.
Now the important thing about nominal impedance is that it's just that - 'nominal'. It isn't a real value. The magnitude varies hugely across the frequency spectrum. Also, the phase angle varies a lot too, and that affects how current flows.
As manufacturers we have to specify impedance for two reasons:
1. To make sure amplifiers aren't driving a load they can't handle (if too much current flows for a given voltage then components can fail).
2. To give guidance on the max power output the amp can produce into the speaker.
The 10CR250 driver was originally designed as a 6 ohm nominal driver to give a 4 ohm nominal load in a 6x10". However, as we built and measured prototypes we found that the pairing of the 10CR250 and hybrid resonator enclosure gave an unusually 'easy' load. But also the speakers and enclosure result in an extremely efficient system so it produces a lot of output for a given voltage input.
What does an 'easy' load mean? It means that the impedance minima (dips) do not go very low. And also that the impedance phase does not swing in a difficult direction when the impedance magnitude is low. Both these things mean that the output section of an amplifier doesn't find itself having to push more current than it's comfortable with. This meant that we could safely wire two 10CR250 drivers in parallel in our hybrid resonator enclosure and rate this Two10 cab as a 4 ohm nominal impedance. And then the Eight10 can be a 4 ohm nominal cab. etc.
Real versus nominal value - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The solid line is the impedance magnitude, the dashed line is the impedance phase. This speaker has relatively weak magnets compared to those found in modern bass cabs or PA speakers, so the impedance peaks are relatively low - in an 8 ohm bass or PA cab the peaks can reach around 100 ohm. The manufacturer of this speaker gives it an 8 ohm nominal impedance.
Now the important thing about nominal impedance is that it's just that - 'nominal'. It isn't a real value. The magnitude varies hugely across the frequency spectrum. Also, the phase angle varies a lot too, and that affects how current flows.
As manufacturers we have to specify impedance for two reasons:
1. To make sure amplifiers aren't driving a load they can't handle (if too much current flows for a given voltage then components can fail).
2. To give guidance on the max power output the amp can produce into the speaker.
The 10CR250 driver was originally designed as a 6 ohm nominal driver to give a 4 ohm nominal load in a 6x10". However, as we built and measured prototypes we found that the pairing of the 10CR250 and hybrid resonator enclosure gave an unusually 'easy' load. But also the speakers and enclosure result in an extremely efficient system so it produces a lot of output for a given voltage input.
What does an 'easy' load mean? It means that the impedance minima (dips) do not go very low. And also that the impedance phase does not swing in a difficult direction when the impedance magnitude is low. Both these things mean that the output section of an amplifier doesn't find itself having to push more current than it's comfortable with. This meant that we could safely wire two 10CR250 drivers in parallel in our hybrid resonator enclosure and rate this Two10 cab as a 4 ohm nominal impedance. And then the Eight10 can be a 4 ohm nominal cab. etc.
Real versus nominal value - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So you are 100% sure solid state heads rated for 2 ohm minimum will be fine with a pair of the 4 ohm 210s?
Seems better to call that combo an "easy 1.5", and call the 810 an "easy 3". It makes it confusing when you see an 810 and 610 with the same drivers and same impededence. That's just not possible.
If I am conservative I might opt for the higher impedence versions for a solid state head. They are loud cabs anyway ...
Seems better to call that combo an "easy 1.5", and call the 810 an "easy 3". It makes it confusing when you see an 810 and 610 with the same drivers and same impededence. That's just not possible.
If I am conservative I might opt for the higher impedence versions for a solid state head. They are loud cabs anyway ...
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I have been using the Barefaced Four10 as my main cab for a couple of months now, and I feel like its tonal characteristics are ideal for me, I do love that sound. But last night I brought the Big Baby 2 instead so as to try it with a bass I hadn't used with it, and I have never had so many people seek me out to tell me how great the bass sounded. I guess I just can't make up my mind which I like better, they are definitely different cabs. Perhaps that's why I own both (and also a One10). I feel like a guy with a closet full of $1000 suits, I can pull any one of them off the hanger and look great.
Hey Barefacers, I am really interested in some input from the community on the differences between Berg cabs and the various Barefaced models.
I currently use the following combinations most often:
Mesa Walkabout + CN212
WA + NV610
Fender Studio (200w all tube) + CN212
Fender Studio + NV610
I also have an Ampeg SVT 6Pro and PF500 on hand, as well as a LDS Faital 15PR400 loaded 2x15 which I use with the Fender Studio head from time to time for a very nice old school tone (and look FWIW).
So, what does this have to do with Barefaced ?
I am keenly interested in smaller lighter (within reason) that can accomplish the same as bigger heavier. I have been reading about the BF cabs for a while now and see that they have a very enthusiastic user base (which is not unusual on TB). Over the years, I have become very skeptical about getting "big tone" from small, single driver boxes. Every time I have veered in that direction, I ultimately get let down by the limits of limited drivers and end up back at more drivers, and more efficient drivers.
So, what I'd like to know is, what sonic differences would I expect between my Berg cabs vs various BF cabs. Looking at Alex's web site, I would guess that for the CN212 and NV610, I would be looking to compare these with the BF Super Twin or Big Twin cabs, or perhaps 2 x some combination of the BF smaller cabs like the Super Compact or Big Baby, or even 2 x 210.
I play in several bands and the FOH support is about 60%. Style wise I am looking for what is often called an updated oldschool tone .. rolled off lows (<80hz zone), solid mid bass, even but present mids, and highs up to about 4k - musical but never sizzly. I favor a tube influenced tone, but do not seek grit, but more of the warm compressed tone we can get from tube (full on or hybrid like the WA). I do slap when called on, but its way more in the Chuck Rainey/Larry Grahm zone than the Victor/Marcus zone.
I did see some limited discussion about Berg vs BF in this thread, but really did not get any clear perspective.
So, can any of you help me out with your experience - particularly those who have experience with Berg cabs.
Thanks
I currently use the following combinations most often:
Mesa Walkabout + CN212
WA + NV610
Fender Studio (200w all tube) + CN212
Fender Studio + NV610
I also have an Ampeg SVT 6Pro and PF500 on hand, as well as a LDS Faital 15PR400 loaded 2x15 which I use with the Fender Studio head from time to time for a very nice old school tone (and look FWIW).
So, what does this have to do with Barefaced ?
I am keenly interested in smaller lighter (within reason) that can accomplish the same as bigger heavier. I have been reading about the BF cabs for a while now and see that they have a very enthusiastic user base (which is not unusual on TB). Over the years, I have become very skeptical about getting "big tone" from small, single driver boxes. Every time I have veered in that direction, I ultimately get let down by the limits of limited drivers and end up back at more drivers, and more efficient drivers.
So, what I'd like to know is, what sonic differences would I expect between my Berg cabs vs various BF cabs. Looking at Alex's web site, I would guess that for the CN212 and NV610, I would be looking to compare these with the BF Super Twin or Big Twin cabs, or perhaps 2 x some combination of the BF smaller cabs like the Super Compact or Big Baby, or even 2 x 210.
I play in several bands and the FOH support is about 60%. Style wise I am looking for what is often called an updated oldschool tone .. rolled off lows (<80hz zone), solid mid bass, even but present mids, and highs up to about 4k - musical but never sizzly. I favor a tube influenced tone, but do not seek grit, but more of the warm compressed tone we can get from tube (full on or hybrid like the WA). I do slap when called on, but its way more in the Chuck Rainey/Larry Grahm zone than the Victor/Marcus zone.
I did see some limited discussion about Berg vs BF in this thread, but really did not get any clear perspective.
So, can any of you help me out with your experience - particularly those who have experience with Berg cabs.
Thanks
- Apr 15, 2010
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- Spector Artist
From what you've described I see more Alex' 10" "retro"speakers than his 12" "flat response" ones.
I don't have any experience with Berg but I live in the East Bay and would be happy to let you try my Barefaced Big Twin II
I used to have an NV610. The retro cabs are from the same tonal universe but are much lighter. I can go into more detail once I gig the retro, but seems like the natural choice for your goals.
Sorry to respectfully disagree, but I too used to have an NV610 and my BF Four 10 is nothing like my memory of the NV610. IIRC the NV610 was harder in the upper mids, the BF410 sounds far more euphonious to me.
I still have a Bergantino NV215, one of my all time favourite cabs, it sounds more open and extended than the Four 10. Currently I marginally favour the Four 10 ahead of it as the 410 seems a more forgiving cab. Certainly with an all-tube head it is just about impossible to get a bad tone from the Four 10, and it is very responsive to eq - far more than I originally thought.
thanks for that insight. I have looked at that combination. I do like the idea of a modular rig, and a vertical 2x210 would probably work well for me on most gigs. And, given that I would not get rid of any of the Berg cabs just to get a BF cab, I would be well covered.
one hesitation is that the BF 2x10's are $850 each, making a 2x 2x10 rig come in at $1,700. While $$ is not my primary decision point, that's a lot of gig money for 2 cabs.
still an option.
thanks for that. yes, old school vs snappy high end is more my goal, so perhaps you are correct.
too bad I can't audition these little beauties. I was actually able to listen to the Berg cabs side by side when I bought them (Gelb Music in Redwood City, CA is such a great bass shop). I think Alex offers a 30 day return deal, so maybe I will consider that.
thanks, but heh, you hit on the one format that I am not very interested in - 4x10. In 45 years of bass playing I have developed a real dislike for the physical format of the 4x10 ... difficult schlep in my experience, and as I'm not getting any more limber/strong/durable as I age, this is not going to be high on my list.
I'm sure it sounds good, but just not a good format for me. I would financially tough out 2x 2x10's before I would go with a 4x10, no matter how good sounding.
