Official Zon Club Part 5

[J.Wolf]

this thing with MB is a perfect encapsulation/analogy of this exact problem. Its not THAT you have a grievance, its HOW it is handled. Just like it's not THAT Zon is late delivering certain instruments, its HOW that goes down, how communication is or isnt handled in each case.

 

[MCS4]

In any case, I don't understand why anyone would show such loyalty to a brand that they seemingly wish to discount the negative purchase experiences that have been voiced by multiple customers.

It seems to me to be a question of scale and context. There have been many posts in the past about delays with Zon that generated reasonable discussions. Here, the allegations went into significant allegations of misconduct far beyond the scope of anything I recall seeing before, and therefore it is not surprising that it generated a lot of backlash from Zon fans (or non-Zon fans who want to hear both sides and not believe the worst about a reputable builder absent proof). I personally am a member of the long-Zon-wait club (2+ years, if I recall correctly) and was not entirely satisfied by my customer service experience, but I nonetheless felt that what I was able to read from the current dispute (mainly from the separate thread that existed briefly) was improper and written in such an inflammatory manner that I was not inclined to believe much of anything from it other than the literal amount of delay that occurred.

 

[andrew]

And I'll be honest- my wait is much longer than all of these, but there has been communication the whole time. My previous instruments were all on time.

How long were you told the bass would take to complete when you ordered it?

 

[Grahams Groove]

I personally am a member of the long-Zon-wait club (2+ years, if I recall correctly) and was not entirely satisfied by my customer service experience, but I nonetheless felt that what I was able to read from the current dispute (mainly from the separate thread that existed briefly) was improper and written in such an inflammatory manner that I was not inclined to believe much of anything from it other than the literal amount of delay that occurred.

That's why I said, "I don't agree with every aspect of how this was apparently handled by MB or Zon in this specific case." I'm talking about people wishing to discount the fact that unreasonable delays & lack of communication are valid concerns. I get that MB is an extreme case, and there are reasons he was warned/banned. It's comments like this that confuse me:

I always get alarmed when we go from "one customer" to "multiple customers" between posts, because it always seems we're headed towards claims of kitten homicide and piracy on the high seas.

If extended delays, lack of communication, and dishonesty about the process are experiences had by multiple customers, that is not itself an exaggeration. Fuzzbass wasn't making outrageous claims, and that 'counterpoint' I quoted is ridiculous.

Edited to add: I'm not saying I wouldn't buy a Zon bass - I've admired their stuff for some time. Still, trying to discredit issues with their business operations in that manner is not helpful to the community - just as MB's actions were not helpful to the community. There's a balance here. It seems like most are seeing it from somewhere in that middle ground. So that's a good place to land...

 

[MCS4]

If extended delays, lack of communication, and dishonesty about the process are experiences had by multiple customers, that is not itself an exaggeration. Fuzzbass wasn't making outrageous claims, and that 'counterpoint' I quoted is ridiculous.

IMO there is probably just a misunderstanding regarding the meaning of these posts.

It seems to me that Fuzzbass' post can be read as suggesting not only that multiple persons have experienced delays, but also that multiple people have been "repeatedly lied to" about those delays, which I don't think was necessarily his intent. I read the post you quoted from packrat as taking issue specifically with the allegation that multiple people have been lied to or otherwise suffered more severe misconduct of a similar nature, not simply that they have had delays.

Personally, while I don't claim to have an encyclopedic knowledge of this threat and similar threads, I do not recall there ever having been any significant allegations of lying or other such intentional misconduct by Zon, other than allegations that builds were delayed and in some cases the buyer wanted more contact from Zon about the delay (although even so I do not believe that I recall anything approaching the contact issues alleged here). It seems to me that packrat's comment makes sense in that regard.

I personally experienced a very long delay on my bass but did receive some periodic updates and was able to speak directly with Joe Zon on the phone a couple of times when I had most clearly expressed my concerns to them.

 

[Fuzzbass]

It seems to me that Fuzzbass' post can be read as suggesting not only that multiple persons have experienced delays, but also that multiple people have been "repeatedly lied to" about those delays, which I don't think was necessarily his intent.

Not all the persons I referred to were repeatedly lied to, but three were. In one case it may have been about delivery dates specifically, but that still counts: if you keep hearing "ready next month" over the course of a year (or more), then that no longer falls under "honest mistake".

Edit: It's never fun to give a customer bad news such as "sorry, there are complications X, Y, and Z, so I can't give you an accurate ETA right now", but that is always preferable to false ETAs.

 

[packrat]

People should probably keep in mind that terrible estimates are not lies and neither are statements you don't like. It has a more precise definition.

 

[packrat]

Methinks you seriously overestimate people's attention span. This will be forgotten in two weeks.

The details or the crazy, yes, that Zon did something terrible and police were involved perhaps not. This is a problem with brands (and why brand advertising looks way it does)

 

[Grahams Groove]

People should probably keep in mind that terrible estimates are not lies and neither are statements you don't like. It has a more precise definition.

Fair enough, but then you have to argue the flipside. Companies that accept money for projects and fail to deliver on multiple renegotiated dates are taking a risk. Call it a soft deadline, a delay, a miscalculation, stalling, or anything but a lie if it suits your argument. That doesn't make it right or defensible from the customer's perspective. And regardless of the fact that both parties handled things poorly in this specific case, it shows that operating a business that way can have consequences - even if this situation is an exception rather than the rule.

 

[packrat]

I suspect it may have more consequences over time as well. I suspect that managing a media presence is much more a thing today than it was for a boutique builder 20 years ago.

 

[Grahams Groove]

I suspect it may have more consequences over time as well. I suspect that managing a media presence is much more a thing today than it was for a boutique builder 20 years ago.

Indeed. You even see it with "regular" people losing their jobs/reputations over social media comments and the resulting public back-lash that can ensue. Not that it's an exact parallel, but it's much easier to spread the word now...

 

[two fingers]

People should probably keep in mind that terrible estimates are not lies and neither are statements you don't like. It has a more precise definition.

As stated most above, one or two "terrible estimates" are not lies. Doing it once a month for over a year is a lie. And it's a ridiculously asinine way to "run" a business.

 

[packrat]

As stated most above, one or two "terrible estimates" are not lies. Doing it once a month for over a year is a lie. And it's a ridiculously asinine way to "run" a business.

Terrible estimates don't become lies at a time point, or a number. This is "things you don't like" which is different.

 

[Grahams Groove]

Terrible estimates don't become lies at a time point, or a number. This is "things you don't like" which is different.

Sure they do - if the dates cannot be met and they knowingly push them back to appease the customer or buy time or ensure a sale, that is a lie. And it's pretty easy to argue that a business knowingly mis-quoted a timeline on a process they've done hundreds of times, when that process ends up taking them 2-3 times as long. It's not like building basses was some unexplored territory with myriad unknown factors.

 

[packrat]

Although we seem to see pretty high variance between builds, no?

 

[Angus]

How long were you told the bass would take to complete when you ordered it?

Completely immaterial at this point- the story is more complex than others. But certainly, it's late.

 

[Angus]

Although we seem to see pretty high variance between builds, no?

There is a very, very small sample size here that I would never take to represent the totality of one shop's output.

 

[Angus]

this thing with MB is a perfect encapsulation/analogy of this exact problem. Its not THAT you have a grievance, its HOW it is handled. Just like it's not THAT Zon is late delivering certain instruments, its HOW that goes down, how communication is or isnt handled in each case.

^^ For all parties.

 

[two fingers]

Terrible estimates don't become lies at a time point, or a number. This is "things you don't like" which is different.

How do you know they were "estimates" in good faith? What makes you such an expert in his character that you are POSITIVE that he genuinely thought he would have that bass done next month.... or the next month.... or the next month.... or the next month...... or the next month..... or the next month....... or the next month..... amd so on and so on?


I don't buy that for a minute. I think they were attempts to get that guy off the phone or to stop emailing. I think they were intentional lies to get that customer to go away right now and let me "deal with it later".


Now, of course, neither of us can be sure. But you seem so definitive in your statements when you have NO IDEA if they were "estimates" or just lies to get the guy to stop calling for a few weeks (or emailing or whatever). You have no idea at all. But you won't even allow for the possibility that he was just gaffing off his customers intentionally.

Do you work for Zon? Do you have documentation? Of course you don't. And in that case you CAN NOT state unequivocally that he was only giving truthful estimates in good faith.

What a crock.

 

[Angus]

How do you know they were "estimates" in good faith? What makes you such an expert in his character that you are POSITIVE that he genuinely thought he would have that bass done next month.... or the next month.... or the next month.... or the next month...... or the next month..... or the next month....... or the next month..... amd so on and so on?


I don't buy that for a minute. I don't think they were attempts to get that guy off the phone or to stop emailing. I think they were intentional lies to get that customer to go away right now and let me "deal with it later".


Now, of course, neither of us can be sure. But you seem so definitive in your statements when you have NO IDEA if they were "estimates" or just lies to get the guy to stop calling for a few weeks (or emailing or whatever). You have no idea at all. But you won't even allow for the possibility that he was just gaffing off his customers intentionally.

Do you work for Zon? Do you have documentation? Of course you don't. And in that case you CAN NOT state unequivocally that he was only giving truthful estimates in good faith.

What a crock.

Well, or he was requesting people adhere to specificity of language when suggesting something inflammatory. He isn't wrong. And that has nothing to do with Zon. It is a good general principle in these circumstances.

I don't think he was suggesting what you are suggesting he was.

Besides, the behavior and the experiences still stand regardless of people needing to ascribe intent/motive to it. It still isn't good, regardless. But I'd rather not prescribe intent to someone else's actions.