Ohms - Don't yell at me

[red_rhino]

Why are y’all yelling?!? We can hear you over in the next forum!

 

[Podgorny]

20% more wattage isn’t a problem you should be concerned with unless you’re trying to keep up with extremely loud band members.

I think it's valuable for players to understand what they're hearing. A speaker operating at its limit has a particular sound, different from the sound of an amp clipping or a distortion pedal. If one is aware of this, they can benefit from the increased headroom of a high-powered amp, even with a lower-wattage speaker cabinet.

It's also worth keeping in mind that when some amps clip, they'll put out DC, which heats up voice coil windings and can cause failure. So using a speaker cabinet that is rated higher than the amp isn't necessarily going to ensure that you never break anything. The best thing you can do to ensure that your amp never breaks is to buy a Peavey.

 

[Wasnex]

A speaker operating at its limit has a particular sound, different from the sound of an amp clipping or a distortion pedal.

That is more accurate for guitar speakers and less accurate for bass and PA speakers. Bass and PA speakers don't always given an indication that they are beyond their limit. IME the often sound perfectly normal right up to the point where the go silent.

 

[Pep]

. . . . . . they can benefit from the increased headroom of a high-powered amp, even with a lower-wattage speaker cabinet.

It's also worth keeping in mind that when some amps clip, they'll put out DC, which heats up voice coil windings and can cause failure. So using a speaker cabinet that is rated higher than the amp isn't necessarily going to ensure that you never break anything.

The best thing you can do to ensure that your amp never breaks is to buy a Peavey.

What he said!

 

[RandomKaren]

I think it's valuable for players to understand what they're hearing. A speaker operating at its limit has a particular sound, different from the sound of an amp clipping or a distortion pedal. If one is aware of this, they can benefit from the increased headroom of a high-powered amp, even with a lower-wattage speaker cabinet.

It's also worth keeping in mind that when some amps clip, they'll put out DC, which heats up voice coil windings and can cause failure. So using a speaker cabinet that is rated higher than the amp isn't necessarily going to ensure that you never break anything. The best thing you can do to ensure that your amp never breaks is to buy a Peavey.

Just when I thought I'd heard it all...

 

[Pep]

Just when I thought I'd heard it all...

You replied to the entire post. Does your comment apply to all of the post or just some of it, and if some, which part? Inquiring Minds Want To Know.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

It's also worth keeping in mind that when some amps clip, they'll put out DC.

They don't.

 

[Pep]

They don't.

The way I understand it is that when an amp clips it basically cuts off the top and bottom of the sine-wave arc. When it gets severe it cuts off so much that it resembles a square wave. If I’m correct that’s when it damages the speaker.

Now I don’t know if this only applies to just full tube amps or Class D as well. Someone please chime-in and let me know if I’m correct about clipping and if it’s universal to all amps.

 

[bass player 53]

The way I understand it is that when an amp clips it basically cuts off the top of the sine-wave arc. When it gets severe it cuts off so much that it resembles a square wave. If I’m correct that’s when it damages the speaker.

Now I don’t know if this only applies to all amps or just full tube amps. Someone please chime-in and let me know if I’m correct about clipping and if it’s universal to all amps.

Please don’t shoot the messenger;
Mackie’s take on this:

WHAT IS CLIPPING? | MACKIE

 

[Pep]

Please don’t shoot the messenger;
Mackie’s take on this:

WHAT IS CLIPPING? | MACKIE

That pretty much confirms my explanation. Thanks!

 

[Richard Lindsey]

The way I understand it is that when an amp clips it basically cuts off the top and bottom of the sine-wave arc. When it gets severe it cuts off so much that it resembles a square wave. If I’m correct that’s when it damages the speaker.

Now I don’t know if this only applies to just full tube amps or Class D as well. Someone please chime-in and let me know if I’m correct about clipping and if it’s universal to all amps.

It's not the clipping or the square wave (which you probably won't reach anyway), it's overpowering. If clipping could do it all by itself, irrespective of the actual power the amp is putting out and the real-world power handling of the speaker, then no Marshall stack would survive a gig, and no rig would survive a fuzz pedal. And you could blow a 1000W woofer with a cranked 1W amp. But none of those things are the case. Clipping is only an issue insofar as it may lead to a situation in which one or more of the components of a speaker system are being overpowered, either thermally or mechanically. If, in a given scenario, it doesn't lead to such a situation, it's not an issue.

The reason I mention the components of a system is that if you have a 2- or 3-way cab, the tweeter will have a much lower power handling than the woofer or the midrange. If clipping builds up enough additional power in the higher frequencies, you can hurt the tweeter without harming the woofer. But again, it's not the clipping per se, it's overpowering.

 

[tom-g]

That pretty much confirms my explanation. Thanks!

If only the info were accurate. It‘s not about the wave form. It’s about power.

Thread 'Clipping / Distortion / Speaker Damage?'

May 9, 2002

Ok, everybody's been saying how it's better to overpower a cab than to underpower (sic) it, and thus I'm in the process of getting a Sansamp RBI with a 1400W power amp

BUT. If the worst damage to the speakers is done by clipping the amp and by doing so causing distortion, and if a clean signal is the only thing healthy to the speakers, what about distortion effects? I play in a metal band and usage of some kind of fuzz is crucial to being heard from under two loud guitars. Even studio engineers want to use distortion on the bass to make it audible.

Am I killing my speakers by...

• Fangry
• Replies: 17
• Forum: Amps and Cabs [BG]

 

[Pep]

It's not the clipping or the square wave (which you probably won't reach anyway), it's overpowering. If clipping could do it all by itself, irrespective of the actual power the amp is putting out and the real-world power handling of the speaker, then no Marshall stack would survive a gig, and no rig would survive a fuzz pedal. And you could blow a 1000W woofer with a cranked 1W amp. But none of those things are the case. Clipping is only an issue insofar as it may lead to a situation in which one or more of the components of a speaker system are being overpowered, either thermally or mechanically. If, in a given scenario, it doesn't lead to such a situation, it's not an issue.

The reason I mention the components of a system is that if you have a 2- or 3-way cab, the tweeter will have a much lower power handling than the woofer or the midrange. If clipping builds up enough additional power in the higher frequencies, you can hurt the tweeter without harming the woofer. But again, it's not the clipping per se, it's overpowering.

Did you bother to read the Mackie attachment???

 

[tom-g]

Did you bother to read the Mackie attachment???

Mackie is incorrect.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Did you bother to read the Mackie attachment???

Of course. It's rather misleading. Much better info has been provided, over and over, by members of TalkBass such as (but not limited to) @agedhorse and @Bob Lee (QSC), though I don't know if Bob is still around. @Mark Reccord is another. Search on those names and you'll find some more accurate information.

And why get so snarky about it? You did ask to be corrected if your understanding wasn't accurate, didn't you? Did you bother to read the thread referenced in post #52?

 

[Pep]

Mackie is incorrect.

Yes, and you are smarter than the engineers at Mackie. I rest my case.

 

[tom-g]

Yes, and you are smarter than the engineers at Mackie. I rest my case.

In this case yes, if that was even written by an engineer at all, which I highly doubt.

 

[Drredplate]

It's not the clipping or the square wave (which you probably won't reach anyway), it's overpowering. If clipping could do it all by itself, irrespective of the actual power the amp is putting out and the real-world power handling of the speaker, then no Marshall stack would survive a gig, and no rig would survive a fuzz pedal. And you could blow a 1000W woofer with a cranked 1W amp. But none of those things are the case. Clipping is only an issue insofar as it may lead to a situation in which one or more of the components of a speaker system are being overpowered, either thermally or mechanically. If, in a given scenario, it doesn't lead to such a situation, it's not an issue.

The reason I mention the components of a system is that if you have a 2- or 3-way cab, the tweeter will have a much lower power handling than the woofer or the midrange. If clipping builds up enough additional power in the higher frequencies, you can hurt the tweeter without harming the woofer. But again, it's not the clipping per se, it's overpowering.

I agree with this
The energy delivered is given by the area under the wave form.
Since for equivalent peak height’s a square wave has more are under it than a sine wave.
Speakers fail as a result of the energy delivered not the wave form as such

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Yes, and you are smarter than the engineers at Mackie. I rest my case.

In this instance, the engineers at Mesa and QSC are.

 

[agedhorse]

I think it's valuable for players to understand what they're hearing. A speaker operating at its limit has a particular sound, different from the sound of an amp clipping or a distortion pedal. If one is aware of this, they can benefit from the increased headroom of a high-powered amp, even with a lower-wattage speaker cabinet

No, not really. In SOME cases this can be true, but in the vast majority of cases the player can't even identify 20% distortion (pretty heavy clipping), especially if overdriven tones are part of the player's sound.

.

It's also worth keeping in mind that when some amps clip, they'll put out DC, which heats up voice coil windings and can cause failure. So using a speaker cabinet that is rated higher than the amp isn't necessarily going to ensure that you never break anything.

This is incorrect, a clipped waveform has a sine wave component and a square wave component... BUT the square wave component can be mathematically represented by a sine wave fundamental plus the series of it's sine wave harmonics. This is EXACTLY how overdriven tones are generated in digital modeling products. The speaker must be rated for the total power including the harmonics... ie. using the area under the power curve model integrated over time.

The best thing you can do to ensure that your amp never breaks is to buy a Peavey.

Presumably this is an attempt at humor?

That is more accurate for guitar speakers and less accurate for bass and PA speakers. Bass and PA speakers don't always given an indication that they are beyond their limit. IME the often sound perfectly normal right up to the point where the go silent.

Correct, this is the more typical situation IME.

The way I understand it is that when an amp clips it basically cuts off the top and bottom of the sine-wave arc. When it gets severe it cuts off so much that it resembles a square wave. If I’m correct that’s when it damages the speaker.

Now I don’t know if this only applies to just full tube amps or Class D as well. Someone please chime-in and let me know if I’m correct about clipping and if it’s universal to all amps.

Yes, but it's not necessarily the shape of the waveform that damages the speaker but the total power of the waveform integrated over time. In practice, the tweeter is what's vulnerable, since clipping generates additional HF harmonics that can overpower the tweeter.

It's not the clipping or the square wave (which you probably won't reach anyway), it's overpowering. If clipping could do it all by itself, irrespective of the actual power the amp is putting out and the real-world power handling of the speaker, then no Marshall stack would survive a gig, and no rig would survive a fuzz pedal. And you could blow a 1000W woofer with a cranked 1W amp. But none of those things are the case. Clipping is only an issue insofar as it may lead to a situation in which one or more of the components of a speaker system are being overpowered, either thermally or mechanically. If, in a given scenario, it doesn't lead to such a situation, it's not an issue.

The reason I mention the components of a system is that if you have a 2- or 3-way cab, the tweeter will have a much lower power handling than the woofer or the midrange. If clipping builds up enough additional power in the higher frequencies, you can hurt the tweeter without harming the woofer. But again, it's not the clipping per se, it's overpowering.

Correct.