Ok...tired subject, but I need advice.

[klejst]

6 12's? Cool man, bet it sounds good.

 

[sammyfallen]

As a guy who's played punk and metal for years, I'm betting your cabs are out of phase. That TXF is a monster of a cab. I'm betting you have wiring issues inside of it. I used one of them for quite a few years with a SVT and Fender Bassman 300pro. It was one of my favorites before I switched up to class D and Neo / lighter weight cabs.

 

[Anhg77]

My eq is as follows...hpf at 3hz, voicing at 1:00, bass at 12:00, low mids at 11:00, freq at about 250 Hz... High mids at 10:00, freq at about 1000hz, treble at 12:00...

You need more mids! you are scooping the sound on both low and hi mids AND you have the voicing at 1:00 (it also scoops the mids).
Mids is what gives you stage presence and lets you cut on the mix.

 

[alembicguy]

One cab is out of phase with the other one or the home built design is flawed.

 

[The Nameless]

I'll add my experience. Tho I am no amp designer, I have played metal and rock music all my life. No one will believe me, but I say the amp IS the issue. I have scads of gear at my disposal. I'm talkin everything. From Ashley and Demeter preamps, Mesa 400+ and Walkabouts and D800s to SWR, Eden, Acoustic, Hartke. I play heavy music two or three times a week in a variety of rooms and settings, and have for 30 odd years. I cannot use ANY switchmode amp and get what I need on a stage, and I have tried them all. None, not one, push speakers to levels I get with my A/B style amps or, of course, my all tube amps. The one that keeps up best is a GK MB500, with either 2 Bag End 15s or two GK Neo 210 cabs. But my SWR Redhead slays those rigs on any stage. 350 watts. 210s. I kinda know why. Listening to all debates on amps and cabs don't matter (they don't, to a point) to everyone now requires HPFs and compression and all this gobbledegook. Gimme a break. If yer needin all that? You have the wrong amp. I terrorize my gear. I play against 3 guitarists, and a drummer with a loud kit and approach. I use my low B as a natural extension of my bass, and I use it tons, right up to the 17th fret. And down to open A if I need. When I need to get loud, class D amps leave me wanting. Every single time. Especially when pushing many speakers, I don't know why. I don't care why. Lots love and use em, who am I? I'm a guy who needs my rig to work a certain way under certain conditions. So, I would suggest getting an old school, 800 watt or above amp and try it. Heavy? In comparison, yes. But on wheels, everything weighs the same. I can use Neo cabs with some success, but my Bag End cabs eat those up, too, onstage in a mix. The difference is quite shocking, and I am always wondering how no one notices the degredation of bass tone nowadays. But that isn't fer me to decide. Go out, borrow an Eden or other higher power A/B amp. My most powerful rig is my Demeter VTBP and my Crown Microtech 1200. Supposedly only 600 watts a side at 4. If I used the D800 in comparison of watts? My Crown has 2000 a side, or feels like it in comparison. I grew up educated totally differently than the info folk use today to build my bass rigs and my sound reinforcement rigs. I went to Crown an Peavey school as a Warrantee repair guy in the 90s. I love folk tryin to make lighter gear. But there is a difference in impact and apparent volume for me on a stage full of heavy music. In fact, stages are easier to run than rehearsal halls. I never need more apparent volume than I do in rehearsals. And lots will argue with me. Cool. I understand. But do yerself a favor. Borrow a very good class A/B power amp, run a preamp send from your D800, and listen to the difference in response. It can't hurt to try. And if I'm wrong? Great! But I have had these volume issues and debates all my life. I've tried to go light. But for me, some things just work. If I need volume and response? I bring heavy artillery.

 

[InhumanResource]

My eq is as follows...hpf at 3hz, voicing at 1:00, bass at 12:00, low mids at 11:00, freq at about 250 Hz... High mids at 10:00, freq at about 1000hz, treble at 12:00...

More mids and less bass.

HPF at 3hz?

 

[InhumanResource]

I have had many 8x10 cabs, used ones from $300 and up. Quit drinking beer and buy one and get tone.

Works every time!

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I have an even simpler solution, you said:
"I have an always on mxr m85 adding grit but nothing crazy".

Have you tried removing it or turning the pedal off?

Distortion will always result in a less present sound.
You should be getting all the grind you need with actual volume.

Dirk

 

[FenderB]

Very interesting topic but what does HPF mean, and how do you set it? OP no intention of hijacking your thread, just a quick off topic question.
Thanks,

 

[mcnach]

Very interesting topic but what does HPF mean, and how do you set it? OP no intention of hijacking your thread, just a quick off topic question.
Thanks,

High Pass Filter.

It cuts everything below the cut off frequency and lets through the rest.
It actually doesn't cut everything below... there's a steep slope so the attenuation starts soft and gets progressively stronger as the frequency goes down.

The Mesa D800+ has a control on the panel to set that cut off frequency.

 

[Stumbo]

Aha!

Bear in mind that what sounds good alone may be wrong with the band... but it sounds like you may be able to get it to work!

When you play with the band, at higher volume, don't be afraid to experiment with the HPF and the bass control.

I generally leave the deep switch off as it adds too much low end for my liking. I have the bright switch on permanently, and tone controls flat. I may add a bit of low mids or high mids sometimes... a bit. But I generally find that I only need small adjustments: having the ability to set the centre frequency means to me that it's more about finding the right frequency and adjust a little.

Where I play a lot is with the HPF and bass control. I found over time that sometimes turning the HPF up *AND* turning bass control up a bit gave me the right amount of tight low end with *punch*. It was not intuitive to me... I mean, by putting the HPF up I was cutting more and more low end, so why would I boost the bass too? Wouldn't it be undoing what I was doing? But it seems that the result is boosting the very low end in a very controlled manner which adds bottom end 'presence' without mud. I'm not very technical other can explain why that works... but, just try it, experiment *with the band*... Play a bit and see what the controls do TOGETHER, not just each separately.

I've owned the D800+ for about a year now and I'm still in love with this box. I can safely say it's the first amp I've owned where I never felt I was compromising anything. Of course, a lot of it is to do with having the right cabs for your goals... but you have a hell of an amp there, super versatile... If the cabs you have don't have anything majorly wrong with them (and reading further it looks like you were careful enough) I'm positive you'll find if not the tone you dream of, at least a tone that you can work with and be happy with.

Good luck!

Very interesting topic but what does HPF mean, and how do you set it? OP no intention of hijacking your thread, just a quick off topic question.
Thanks,

Check out the High pass and Low pass mega thread.

 

[Bartrinsic]

I'll add my experience. Tho I am no amp designer, I have played metal and rock music all my life. No one will believe me, but I say the amp IS the issue. I have scads of gear at my disposal. I'm talkin everything. From Ashley and Demeter preamps, Mesa 400+ and Walkabouts and D800s to SWR, Eden, Acoustic, Hartke. I play heavy music two or three times a week in a variety of rooms and settings, and have for 30 odd years. I cannot use ANY switchmode amp and get what I need on a stage, and I have tried them all. None, not one, push speakers to levels I get with my A/B style amps or, of course, my all tube amps. The one that keeps up best is a GK MB500, with either 2 Bag End 15s or two GK Neo 210 cabs. But my SWR Redhead slays those rigs on any stage. 350 watts. 210s. I kinda know why. Listening to all debates on amps and cabs don't matter (they don't, to a point) to everyone now requires HPFs and compression and all this gobbledegook. Gimme a break. If yer needin all that? You have the wrong amp. I terrorize my gear. I play against 3 guitarists, and a drummer with a loud kit and approach. I use my low B as a natural extension of my bass, and I use it tons, right up to the 17th fret. And down to open A if I need. When I need to get loud, class D amps leave me wanting. Every single time. Especially when pushing many speakers, I don't know why. I don't care why. Lots love and use em, who am I? I'm a guy who needs my rig to work a certain way under certain conditions. So, I would suggest getting an old school, 800 watt or above amp and try it. Heavy? In comparison, yes. But on wheels, everything weighs the same. I can use Neo cabs with some success, but my Bag End cabs eat those up, too, onstage in a mix. The difference is quite shocking, and I am always wondering how no one notices the degredation of bass tone nowadays. But that isn't fer me to decide. Go out, borrow an Eden or other higher power A/B amp. My most powerful rig is my Demeter VTBP and my Crown Microtech 1200. Supposedly only 600 watts a side at 4. If I used the D800 in comparison of watts? My Crown has 2000 a side, or feels like it in comparison. I grew up educated totally differently than the info folk use today to build my bass rigs and my sound reinforcement rigs. I went to Crown an Peavey school as a Warrantee repair guy in the 90s. I love folk tryin to make lighter gear. But there is a difference in impact and apparent volume for me on a stage full of heavy music. In fact, stages are easier to run than rehearsal halls. I never need more apparent volume than I do in rehearsals. And lots will argue with me. Cool. I understand. But do yerself a favor. Borrow a very good class A/B power amp, run a preamp send from your D800, and listen to the difference in response. It can't hurt to try. And if I'm wrong? Great! But I have had these volume issues and debates all my life. I've tried to go light. But for me, some things just work. If I need volume and response? I bring heavy artillery.

How about a Crown XLS2502? 2400W @ 4 ohms bridged, class D. I'm not arguing just wondering how much is quantity vs quality. G

 

[Ric5]

The second issue is why are you working with guitarists playing with 40 year old technology? Stacks went out of vogue in the 70s. If I ever see or hear a guitarist say he needs to play through a stack to work with me, it ain’t happening. If they feel they need to be that loud, odds are they aren’t all that,
JMO

The band I am currently playing with rehearses in a basement … there are 3 guitars/bass/drums … One of the guitars doubles on keyboards. The guitar amps are a sea of 4x12 cabs. The one guitar player who really cut through the mix was the guy playing through a little 1x12 Fender champ. So I am telling the guys that 1x12 or 2x12 combos would be a better fit for our band. But the OP plays in a metal band and metal guitarists love the sealed 4x12 cabs for the metal tone.

Also 4x12 cabs are great for bass … they are not as efficient in the low end but the low mids they produce are great for bass

 

[agedhorse]

How about a Crown XLS2502? 2400W @ 4 ohms bridged, class D. I'm not arguing just wondering how much is quantity vs quality. G

From a speaker perspective, I don't think they would last very long under the OP's playing conditions (particularly the 212).

 

[agedhorse]

I'll add my experience. Tho I am no amp designer, I have played metal and rock music all my life. No one will believe me, but I say the amp IS the issue. I have scads of gear at my disposal. I'm talkin everything. From Ashley and Demeter preamps, Mesa 400+ and Walkabouts and D800s to SWR, Eden, Acoustic, Hartke. I play heavy music two or three times a week in a variety of rooms and settings, and have for 30 odd years. I cannot use ANY switchmode amp and get what I need on a stage, and I have tried them all. None, not one, push speakers to levels I get with my A/B style amps or, of course, my all tube amps. The one that keeps up best is a GK MB500, with either 2 Bag End 15s or two GK Neo 210 cabs. But my SWR Redhead slays those rigs on any stage. 350 watts. 210s. I kinda know why. Listening to all debates on amps and cabs don't matter (they don't, to a point) to everyone now requires HPFs and compression and all this gobbledegook. Gimme a break. If yer needin all that? You have the wrong amp. I terrorize my gear. I play against 3 guitarists, and a drummer with a loud kit and approach. I use my low B as a natural extension of my bass, and I use it tons, right up to the 17th fret. And down to open A if I need. When I need to get loud, class D amps leave me wanting. Every single time. Especially when pushing many speakers, I don't know why. I don't care why. Lots love and use em, who am I? I'm a guy who needs my rig to work a certain way under certain conditions. So, I would suggest getting an old school, 800 watt or above amp and try it. Heavy? In comparison, yes. But on wheels, everything weighs the same. I can use Neo cabs with some success, but my Bag End cabs eat those up, too, onstage in a mix. The difference is quite shocking, and I am always wondering how no one notices the degredation of bass tone nowadays. But that isn't fer me to decide. Go out, borrow an Eden or other higher power A/B amp. My most powerful rig is my Demeter VTBP and my Crown Microtech 1200. Supposedly only 600 watts a side at 4. If I used the D800 in comparison of watts? My Crown has 2000 a side, or feels like it in comparison. I grew up educated totally differently than the info folk use today to build my bass rigs and my sound reinforcement rigs. I went to Crown an Peavey school as a Warrantee repair guy in the 90s. I love folk tryin to make lighter gear. But there is a difference in impact and apparent volume for me on a stage full of heavy music. In fact, stages are easier to run than rehearsal halls. I never need more apparent volume than I do in rehearsals. And lots will argue with me. Cool. I understand. But do yerself a favor. Borrow a very good class A/B power amp, run a preamp send from your D800, and listen to the difference in response. It can't hurt to try. And if I'm wrong? Great! But I have had these volume issues and debates all my life. I've tried to go light. But for me, some things just work. If I need volume and response? I bring heavy artillery.

So, are you saying that all the players who are using class D amps successfully at high volumes, and prefer class D over lead sled are doing something wrong?

 

[astack]

I'm at 4 ohms..

So, back to the cabs, the Sica driver is an 8 ohm speaker. There's no way to get six 8 ohm speakers to come out to 4 ohms. Presumably, you wired the 412 to be 8 ohm (series / parallel) and the 212 to be 4 ohm ([del]series[/del] parallel) and when connected (in [del]series[/del] parallel), they'd be 2.67 ohms, which that Mesa can do, but most other class-d heads can't. Do check the polarity and wiring, as others have mentioned, if you haven't yet. If the wiring is off, the impedance could either be high and you're getting less power from the amp or too low and you're overworking the amp.

Even if you are happier with your sound after tweaking amp settings, I'd bet there's still a lot of improvement from sorting out your cabs.

*Edited connections

 

[Session1969]

That's right.
The difference among headphone tone, room tone, rehearsal tone and gig tone is quite a lot. If you play with musicians that don't know the difference, woe is you.

It can be an uphill battle to get band members to learn that FOH as a group is what matters.

It took me years to figure this out.

 

[FugaziBomb]

Do you know how to do the battery test to check polarity?
If you have speakers that are reversed from each other, that will act to cancel each other.
If you have a pair of twelves of the 6 that are backwards, it would be kind of like only running 2 twelves total.
Is this one 6x12 cab, or 3 2x, or a 4 X and a 2x?

This happened to me when I tried to run my old stack (GK RB + Hartke VX215) with my current (Demeter/Crown XTi + (2) Hartke XL410). I was kinda shocked, being that they were both Hartke cabs. I guess that didn't matter...

 

[Pbassmanca]

This is what you need right here....

View attachment 3027149 View attachment 3027150 View attachment 3027151 View attachment 3027152 View attachment 3027153 View attachment 3027154 View attachment 3027155 I am a novice at message boards but I might have a little information about some old tube amps... I was encouraged to start a thread here about some of the stuff I have. So I'll start with the SVT's. I have been playing through these amps since the late 70's and wouldn't consider anything else. I have many more than are pictured here (and other stuff) but I thought it might be fun to let you guys know that there is someone out there that still goes through the trouble to actually USE these great amps.

 

[FenderB]

Check out the High pass and Low pass mega thread.

Thank you Stumbo, I will.