Old School vs. New School Amplification

[jazztonebass]

I am returning to the world of amplified electric bass after many years. My last rig, years ago, was a Alembic F1X, a Crest CA9, into various 4x10's and 1x15's. Heavy rig but thunderous.

As I survey the field and consider the movement toward lighter rigs that utilize class D micro amps and Neo drivers, I wonder if there are any sonic sacrifices for the sake of portability with this approach. Can the class D amps like Pumas, and Tone Hammers achieve the punch and feel of the lead sleds?

I want to believe!

 

[middy]

There's not a problem with class D. I think there is a problem with punch with the low end SMPS amps (most bass micro heads). My theory is they don't have enough capacitance to maintain sufficient current for a punchy attack and loud transients.

Then again, I could be wrong. I'm no expert.

 

[SuperSubSonicRainboom]

I've had and like both. Whether or not you should "believe" depends on what your goals are in your come-back. For example is portability important to you? Do you think it would be fun to take an amp in the front seat of your car to play a show of 40 people, or do you prefer to use a cargo trailer and play stadiums? Two car garage rock with a drumset, bass amp only needs 20-100 tube watts, or 50-150 solid state watts. edit/add: Solid State and Class D both come with built in punch and feel so long as you play it that way hehe

 

[seamonkey]

There's no compromise with Class-d an Neodymium
Large high priced FOH systems use them exclusively these days. They could use anything they want, they choice to use class-d and neo because it does the job.

 

[JimmyM]

High priced FOH systems choose to use class D/SMPS amps because they're smaller, easier to handle a rack full of amp, and take up less room in equipment trucks. And they can sound very good

I do like class D/SMPS amps and have a couple, but I've yet to play a small amp that had the sound of a lead sled amp. I have not played them all by any means, but I've played many, and there is a difference.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

My 900-watt TecAmp Puma 900 doesn't feel or sound anything like a lead sled ... until I turn up the volume.

Link Removed

 

[SuperSubSonicRainboom]

...and there is a difference

Yes, and they are both good. chocolate or vanilla, its icecream! Lead Sledding is awesome! Digital is awesome!

 

[Funkfaker]

I went from Trace Elliot and Ashdown rigs to a Mark Bass LMII for portability. Shortly after, I settled on the Aguilar TH500. I don't miss any of the transformer "heft" that I thought I would. The EQ and Drive controls allow for a nice range of tone: modern scooped tones, vintage mid-range thump, or grindy/bright sounds. It's powered everything from a smaller SL112 to an Ampeg 8x10.

Definitely try some of the micro amps out, whether it involves a local store or an online retailer with a liberal return policy. I'm a convert.

 

[BassmanPaul]

needs 20-100 tube watts, or 50-150 solid state watts.

Oh no!!! You DIDN'T!!

 

[chaosMK]

For me some old tube amps like the Bass 400 and D180 (and the Plus) have a certain mojo in the tone that no other amp has. So I lug those around.

My experience with Class D has been cool though. I really like the Genz Benz Streamliner. I guess like some people are alluding, there are probably lesser quality Class D amps out there too.

It seems like the TH has had great reviews and also a lot of people have complaints about dialing it in. I'm passing on that one.

 

[rodl2005]

I use a 300w all tube amp and a 500w class D amp.
Love em both but would 95% of the time choose the all tube amp if access- stairs, crowds etc -was easy.
Cabs- I'm less fussy about. As long as it's built/designed well and I like the sound I'll use it.
I use 2 neo 1x12"s for smaller gigs and a sealed ceramic multi driver cab for larger gigs.

 

[bluesdogblues]

Some of them D Class small bass amp heads are really good actually

 

[FFTT]

I'm all tube, hand wired mil spec construction, so put me down for old school.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I do like class D/SMPS amps and have a couple, but I've yet to play a small amp that had the sound of a lead sled amp. I have not played them all by any means, but I've played many, and there is a difference.

That's been my experience as well. The difference in my lead-sled QSC RMX850 and switching PLX1602 is definitely noticeable, even when they're driving monitors. The former has an authority in the lows and low-mids that the latter lacks. They're both great amps, but weight and power aside, I prefer the lead sled. I also have a few class-D micros that do have amazing fidelity, but they still don't quite sound as authoritative as the older, heavier designs I own.

That's not really a new versus old issue, though. There are some new amps that sound awesome. However, I'm squarely in the camp that new cabinet engineering blows away the cabinets of yesteryear. Even cabs that aim to capture the vintage vibe, like the Berg NV series and Aggie DB series, outshine the older designs from which they were inspired, IMHO.

 

[jazztonebass]

This is my concern. Portability and convenience are considerations but I don't want to sacrifice feel, thump, tone and "authority". Can I have my cake and eat it too? Please.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

This is my concern. Portability and convenience are considerations but I don't want to sacrifice feel, thump, tone and "authority". Can I have my cake and eat it too? Please.

The answer is yes. Why all the angst? There are many nice, high quality small amps. Do your research, buy one and try it. They all have money-back guarantees. You'll learn more by doing that than relying on a bunch of words flung over the Internet.

 

[KJung]

This is my concern. Portability and convenience are considerations but I don't want to sacrifice feel, thump, tone and "authority". Can I have my cake and eat it too? Please.

Every amp sounds different, due to a thousand reasons. One of the things that causes the most confusion with power amps is the input sensitivity of the power amp. Regardless of power amp design and power supply design, if a PA type amp is not appropriately matched to the particular preamp output, it will sound quite different. Throw in different hi pass settings, etc., and it is hard to do a true 'apples to apples'.

Regarding all in one amps with SMPS power supplies (that is what really makes them light, not necessarily the power amp type), they all sound different. Some, due primarily to preamp voicing and 'internal fixed' low end voicing, will sound uber articulate and a bit bright (e.g., the Genz heads), others will sound BIG down low and aggressive up top (e.g., GK). Others will sound fat and warm and chewy (e.g., Aguilar). Some will sound much like a high end studio board (e.g., Glockenklang Blue Sky/Soul), etc., etc., etc.

Use your ears and not your eyes, and if you decide to replace the C9 with a lightweight PA amp, MAKE SURE to get one that matches the output of your Alembic optimally. That is MUCH more important than the class of amp.

 

[agedhorse]

From those of us who have designed both linear amps with traditional line frequency power supplies, linear amps with switchmode power supplies AND class D amps, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why one has to sound "more authoritative" than another IF they are designed to the same target performance goals.

While there certainly are examples that support this myth, IMO this "heavy amps = better low end" myth really need to move on in the bass guitar world as it has years ago in the pro audio world. I can't think of a single amp these days used for sub in the touriong pro audio world that uses ANYTHING but switchmode power supplies AND class D. This is in an industry where cost is not an objection, nor is weight (IF it really impacted performance). In fact, for low frequency amplification class D offeres some significant low frequency performance advantages that can not be had with calss AB/G/H topologies.

... And yes, it's hard for me to admit this. I spent most of my professional career designing high powered linear power amps (pro audio and bass guitar world) with traditional power supplies. There is a certain comfort factor with traditional technology, but the new technology done right is really a significant improvement all around. I have done more controlled listening tests on this specific subject than probably all but a select few on TB (and you guys know who you are) and any differences are not statisticly significant nor are they repeatable under properly controlled conditions where the switching can not be anticipated. This is the advantage of double-blind testing, it takes the human "want to alter the outcome" factor out of the equation.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

The OP should probably consider a Hartke LH series amp to replace his old rack rig in a medium sized and weighted package that likely would feel at "home"

 

[LiquidMidnight]

From those of us who have designed both linear amps with traditional line frequency power supplies, linear amps with switcvhmode power supplies AND class D amps, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why one has to sound "more authoritative" than another IF they are designed to the same target performance goals.

While there certainly are examples that support this myth, IMO this "heavy amps = better low end" myth really need to move on in the bass guitar world as it has years ago in the pro audio world. I can't think of a single amp these days used for sub in the touriong pro audio world that uses ANYTHING but switchmode power supplies AND class D. This is in an industry where cost is not an objection, nor is weight (IF it really impacted performance). In fact, for low frequency amplification class D offeres some significant low frequency performance advantages that can not be had with calss AB/G/H topologies.

... And yes, it's hard for me to admit this. I spent most of my professional career designing high powered linear power amps (pro audio and bass guitar world) with traditional power supplies. There is a certain comfort factor with traditional technology, but the new technology done right is really a significant improvement all around. I have done more controlled listening tests on this specific subject than probably all but a select few on TB (and you guys know who you are) and any differences are not statisticly significant nor are they repeatable under properly controlled conditions where the switching can not be anticipated. This is the advantage of double-blind testing, it takes the human "want to alter the outcome" factor out of the equation.

I think there needs to be a separating of the idea that lightweight, class-D is inherently less authoritative from the reality that many amps that use class-D simply lack the authority that their heavier forefathers have. A Corvette and a Suzuki motorcycle both have a combustion engine, but they're not going to feel the same when driving them. I'm definitely not prejudiced towards all class-D amps; it's just that the ones I have used have lacked a certain something that the class A/B amps and lead sleds I have played seem to have. I haven't tried the new G-B amps, which from what I understand, can closely mimic the sound and response of an all-tube design.