Old School vs. New School Amplification

[SuperSubSonicRainboom]

I think there needs to be a separating of the idea that lightweight, class-D is inherently less authoritative from the reality that many amps that use class-D simply lack the authority that their heavier forefathers have. A Corvette and a Suzuki motorcycle both have a combustion engine, but they're not going to feel the same when driving them. I'm definitely not prejudiced towards all class-D amps; it's just that the ones I have used have lacked a certain something that the class A/B amps and lead sleds I have played seem to have. I haven't tried the new G-B amps, which from what I understand, can closely mimic the sound and response of an all-tube design.

you may be referring to transformer sag and not know it

 

[KJung]

The OP should probably consider a Hartke LH series amp to replace his old rack rig in a medium sized and weighted package that likely would feel at "home"

That is a very good suggestion. As one who gigged an Alembic pre/power amp way back in the day, the LH500/1000 is the closest thing to that combination in an all in one unit. Pretty inexpensive also. The other option, per the above, is to replace the C9 with a nice class D/SMPS PA power amp that matches up with the output of the Alembic. Plenty of guys on TB who use that preamp with a power amp that could give guidance as to which one would be optimal. That would save MASSIVE weight.

 

[huckleberry1]

I started with GK & have no complaints but now have an Ampeg SVT VR & it is horrendously heavy. The cab is a Bergantino CN 212, sound-wise I am in a spiritual place.

 

[SirMjac28]

Buy a drink for the first person in the audience who can tell the difference

 

[FFTT]

All my experience with solid state bass amps were a disappointment, especially in the richness of tone and the natural sound of the instrument. I tried for years to find anything new that delivered at least as good a tone as my '73 SVT.
The only amp to Ever give my SVT a run for the money in tone, is the Reeves Custom 225.

After 30 years of searching, the cost of the Reeves 225 was worth saving for.
Its also 25 pounds lighter than an SVT.

The natural tones of my vintage instruments are important, especially for recording.
I sacrificed and got by with crap for too many years to settle this time.

If I were playing local clubs, I could see having a light weight backup, but it would always be the backup.

 

[KJung]

All my experience with solid state bass amps were a disappointment, especially in the richness of tone and the natural sound of the instrument. I tried for years to find anything new that delivered at least as good a tone as my '73 SVT.
The only amp to Ever give my SVT a run for the money in tone, is the Reeves Custom 225.

After 30 years of searching, the cost of the Reeves 225 was worth saving for.
Its also 25 pounds lighter than an SVT.

The natural tones of my vintage instruments are important, especially for recording.
I sacrificed and got by with crap for too many years to settle this time.

If I were playing local clubs, I could see having a light weight backup, but it would always be the backup.

This is a pure personal choice. The happiest moment of my bass playing life is when I was able to dump my old V4B back in the day for the new fangled GK that came out. Totally different tone, not better or worse, but much better for me. No more amp sounding different at the end of the night when you push it versus the beginning of the night, and much more articulate and clean at high volumes.

Again, just pointing out that this is pure tonal and performance preference, not good nor bad in any way. I too felt I was 'settling' with a tube amp, since back in the day, there wasn't much else out there. Different strokes, and there is virtually nothing on the market that doesn't sound good in its own way.

Play what you like, like what you play!

 

[agedhorse]

I think there needs to be a separating of the idea that lightweight, class-D is inherently less authoritative from the reality that many amps that use class-D simply lack the authority that their heavier forefathers have. A Corvette and a Suzuki motorcycle both have a combustion engine, but they're not going to feel the same when driving them. I'm definitely not prejudiced towards all class-D amps; it's just that the ones I have used have lacked a certain something that the class A/B amps and lead sleds I have played seem to have. I haven't tried the new G-B amps, which from what I understand, can closely mimic the sound and response of an all-tube design.

Reality is that the target voicing of an amp does not go hand in hand with the type of power amp used (with some nod towards the all tube product voicings that seem to have a more specific goal) but with the specific choices made during the design process. The more modern sound tends to be a little more straight forward and moderately voiced, whereas the older school sound tends to be more heavily voiced. This has nothing to do with the topology of either the power transformer in the power supply or the power amp itself, it's specific choices in the design process and mostly in the preamp but a power amp CAN be made to have a voice as well, though most are not. All ofthese are independent of toploogy.

 

[KJung]

Reality is that the target voicing of an amp does not go hand in hand with the type of power amp used (with some nod towards the all tube product voicings that seem to have a more specific goal) but with the specific choices made during the design process. The more modern sound tends to be a little more straight forward and moderately voiced, whereas the older school sound tends to be more heavily voiced. This has nothing to do with the topology of either the power transformer in the power supply or the power amp itself, it's specific choices in the design process and mostly in the preamp but a power amp CAN be made to have a voice as well, though most are not. All ofthese are independent of toploogy.

Ok Andy. Enough chit chat... back to work on that Walkabout front end with a 750 watt lightweight amp/power supply

 

[agedhorse]

Ok Andy. Enough chit chat... back to work on that Walkabout front end with a 750 watt lightweight amp/power supply

C'mon Ken, you are setting the bar so low these days

 

[PDGood]

One of the nice things about the new technology that is being overlooked here is the cabinet. As Ken has helped me to understand, it's how the whole player+bass+amp+cab combination works together that makes the sound. I played through an SVT a Fender 400PS, countless Peaveys and an Acoustic 370 rig back in the day with all manner of speaker combos, and none of them come close to the sound I'm getting with an LMIII and an Audiokinesis TC115 cab. It's a tone more to my liking, MUCH greater versatility, and MUCH easier to tote. The biggest difference I notice though is the articulation in the bottom end is far more precise. That's the cabinet.
It would be interesting to try some of the old heads with the new cab, but it's made specifically for the micro heads and there's just no need to go backwards for me at this point.

 

[fdeck]

Ok Andy. Enough chit chat... back to work on that Walkabout front end with a 750 watt lightweight amp/power supply

That would be the famous "walkabout versus talkabout" dilemma.

 

[Red Planet]

There is no reason not to like both types of amps.

It is also important to remember that there are poor executions of any type of amp and there a really well thought out and constructed versions too. Not all micros are created equal nor lead sleds either.

For me the best of all worlds is preferred, a good ol Tube amp, a great Pre Power rig, and a fantastic Ultralight micro rig.

 

[nostatic]

old and new - no compromises

 

[Interceptor]

There is no reason not to like both types of amps.

It is also important to remember that there are poor executions of any type of amp and there a really well thought out and constructed versions too. Not all micros are created equal nor lead sleds either.

For me the best of all worlds is preferred, a good ol Tube amp, a great Pre Power rig, and a fantastic Ultralight micro rig.

I couldn't agree more. All of those have their charms. Right now I use two of the three and can easily see the third getting added after a little horse trading. The idea that one amp or cabinet design can do everything (particularly if you play in different genres) is chock full of disappointment.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

old and new - no compromises

Now THAT is gorgeous!

 

[bluesdogblues]

I'm all tube, hand wired mil spec construction, so put me down for old school.

Me too personally prefer (good) tube amp when compare to a (good) SS amp. But the point is: IMHO some of the small SS Amps the OP means are really good, not just light small and compact, but sounds really good indeed.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I am returning to the world of amplified electric bass after many years. My last rig, years ago, was a Alembic F1X, a Crest CA9, into various 4x10's and 1x15's. Heavy rig but thunderous.

As I survey the field and consider the movement toward lighter rigs that utilize class D micro amps and Neo drivers, I wonder if there are any sonic sacrifices for the sake of portability with this approach. Can the class D amps like Pumas, and Tone Hammers achieve the punch and feel of the lead sleds?

I want to believe!

Try playing ANY amp into a 1x15" and 4x10" and compare. Then play your rack rig thru the new fandangled super 1x12"s and compare. Change both and you'll really notice.

Closest amps I've found is the Monique posted earlier. Closest cabs are the 2x12/2x6 and 15/6 cabs like Baer, Berg NV. Try the Puma too - many report it has that 'authority' you might be looking for.

Which basses are you playing? Which styles? The right pairing is so vital to final tone.

 

[Jeff Scott]

The right pairing is so vital to final tone.

Sounds like something J. Gordon Holt would say.

 

[JimmyM]

I think there needs to be a separating of the idea that lightweight, class-D is inherently less authoritative from the reality that many amps that use class-D simply lack the authority that their heavier forefathers have.

I think not enough is being made of this point in this thread. OK, so we're hearing that there should be no difference in the authority of the little SS amps vs the bigger SS amps, but I've yet to play one that has it. So where are they? In fairness to Andy, he has told me that he felt that his big Shuttlemax amps (I think that's what you said, right Andy?) were on a par with his GBE lead sled series amps. I have not played either, but fair enough. So that's one. But why aren't we getting them all over the place in Bassworld? You would think it would be a no-brainer that they would sell, even if it meant higher prices. But while I've played some excellent sounding micro amps, none of them have felt the same as playing a lead sled SS amp. Actually, I've felt they all have more in common with tube amps, albeit in a decidedly less authoritative way, and with varying degrees of closeness.

Hey, I'll be the first to admit that smaller amps can sound really good. Not like I don't use them. I use tube amps more often but I do use micros. And PA's run with class D amps with SMPS sound quite good in arenas and stadiums across the world with the biggest names out there. But I talk to soundmen about this stuff, and they're all quite happy not to be moving 500 lb amp racks anymore, but a lot of them sure feel there's a difference sonically. And I know of one major bass amp manufacturer who has talked about putting out a micro series but doesn't really want to because he's not happy with what he's seen from the format so far. Shouldn't tell you his name but a little deductive reasoning and you can figure it out.

So I'm willing to separate these ideas as LM says. I just want to know where the micros are that have the bang zoom of our more classic lead sleds.

 

[paparoof]

I don't know half as much about this subject as the heavy-hitters here who have already posted. I'm gonna throw this out anyway.

In 16 hours or so I have an audition. I know from viewing photos on their website that their previous guy used the standard SVT w/ 810. I am 100% confident that I will be offered the gig. Not because of my amp, but because I'm a better bass player than their previous guy.

But just for the record this is the rig I'll be bringing and I don't feel like I'm missing any-damned-thing.
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