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Once again walking bass: playing standards on the spot

#43
dexter3d said:
Hello,

Currently I am in a situation where I come to the rehearsal, the guy gives me a sheet of music with melody and chords (mostly jazz standards like Alone Together) and I need to play a walking bass line instantly, without prior practicing (well I might have like 1 minute to read it). The question is - how do I cope with this? Given that it is the song I hear for the first time? What's the algorithm I should use every time? What do you guys do? I am familiar with all the approaches to walking bass, and I studied Ed Friedlands book.
I was thinking like this:
As I can play 2-5-1 easily, I also need to learn and memorize all the other binary chord progressions (2-7, 1-3, 4-7 etc). Then, when I get the new piece, I quickly write the numbers near the chords (in relation to the key of the tune), and as I have learned all those transitions, I apply them automatically, choosing one of the several options of the transition which I have pre-learned. So I focus on numbers rather than actual chords.
Now I get lost so fast, especially when there are 2 chords in a measure, and when the tempo is fast. If I approach the chords in numbers, then I could read them in pairs (e.g. if there is 6minor7-7minor7-3seventh progression, I read it in blocks 6minor7-7minor7, and 7minor7-3seventh). What do you think of my idea? Or is there a better way to do it? I need to dig this fast, because I need to play new songs on the spot, and it freaks me out when I get lost.

Thank you very much for your thoughts!
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I think you're over thinking what needs to be done. You should Know, hear and be able to play the arpeggios to the common chord types i.e. Maj, min, Aug, Dim, Maj7, min7, min7b5, Dom7, Dim7 Once you've got that down an can play them forwards, backwards and their inversions a new chart will not be a problem for you, you just need more practice playing in real time and dealing with charts.

If you can play ii V I easily, you really shouldn't have a problem with any chart that is put in front of you. Just practice this stuff everyday until you know it. :D
 
#47
Ed Fuqua said:
What's this "we", pale face? From an old joke.

In what way?
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Ah, attempting to play dumb. I'm not going to stoop to insulting someone because I don't agree with them, however.

Talking out of my ass? I'd say that would be a physical impossibility. Also, stop putting words in my figurative mouth.

You seem to advocate the popular method of learning: spend hundreds of frustrating hours to learn to play like someone else.

Miles Davis sounded a lot like Gillepese early-on because he spent a ton of time learning his solos. It wasn't until he actually took the theory he knew and started playing it like Miles Davis would that he developed into himself.

If you know you could play R,2,3,5 or 3,R,5,R for a major chord, why do you need to know how Ray Brown would play it?

When the old-school bassists would sit down with a peice, I highly doubt they'd spend time on what the original bassist was doing. They'd see how the chords moved and how they could accentuate that.

They learned to play a tune and internalize the ways the chords moved by *gasp* playing it for hundreds of hours instead of picking it apart.

But, what do I know? I'm only suggesting the method the original jazz players would use. Learn your chords, practice by playing tunes and jam and gig as much as you can.
 
#48
Freddels said:
Well, you're disagreeing with one of the more knowledgeable TB members. Ed has posted examples of his playing on this forum and I'm sure he'd love to hear yours to compare. Post away.
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So that gives him the right to insult someone because people think he's special, obviously. If he decided to call you an idiot, why it must be true. I mean, he's one of the more knowledgable members.

All it sounds like to me is he has his nose stuck way up into the air by having people stroke his ego for so long. I also don't doubt that he can play well; I also didn't suggest I was any better than him.

All I've suggested is to: learn chords and chord movements and practice by actually playing. Just like it was done decades ago by the very same players who I apparently have no idea about. I just said he was over-thinking. He proceeded to insult me for apparently not agreeing with him and licking his wrist.
 
#49
ihassiphilus said:
Ah, attempting to play dumb. I'm not going to stoop to insulting someone because I don't agree with them, however.

Talking out of my ass? I'd say that would be a physical impossibility. Also, stop putting words in my figurative mouth.

You seem to advocate the popular method of learning: spend hundreds of frustrating hours to learn to play like someone else.

Miles Davis sounded a lot like Gillepese early-on because he spent a ton of time learning his solos. It wasn't until he actually took the theory he knew and started playing it like Miles Davis would that he developed into himself.

If you know you could play R,2,3,5 or 3,R,5,R for a major chord, why do you need to know how Ray Brown would play it?

When the old-school bassists would sit down with a peice, I highly doubt they'd spend time on what the original bassist was doing. They'd see how the chords moved and how they could accentuate that.

They learned to play a tune and internalize the ways the chords moved by *gasp* playing it for hundreds of hours instead of picking it apart.

But, what do I know? I'm only suggesting the method the original jazz players would use. Learn your chords, practice by playing tunes and jam and gig as much as you can.
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I think you're missing the point entirely.
You see, you don't transcribe to learn how to play a particular song. Or even to see how they played the song differently from you with the intention to just incorporate some of their stuff into the way you would play the song.

You transcribe to learn Method. You pick apart their playing so you can craft YOUR OWN basslines with the TOOLS (not lines...) learned from other great masters of walking.

Transcribing is a way to expand your horizons, not copy someone elses lines...

I don't suppose you've done much study, but the reason people get degrees in music is because there is something to learn from others players, and the quest to make your work more interesting and maybe even be able to contribute something that maybe another bass player would enhance his style with.

You seem "green", musically.
 
#50
ihassiphilus said:
So that gives him the right to insult someone because people think he's special, obviously. If he decided to call you an idiot, why it must be true. I mean, he's one of the more knowledgable members.

All it sounds like to me is he has his nose stuck way up into the air by having people stroke his ego for so long. I also don't doubt that he can play well; I also didn't suggest I was any better than him.

All I've suggested is to: learn chords and chord movements and practice by actually playing. Just like it was done decades ago by the very same players who I apparently have no idea about. I just said he was over-thinking. He proceeded to insult me for apparently not agreeing with him and licking his wrist.
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The point is that your advice wasn't very good. That's possibly not your fault, you've only repeated what you've been told about walking. On the surface it is simple. You outline the chord changes using chord tones and approach notes, using quarter notes.

Yep, that's all well and good, but when you try to apply it, you find that you can follow the rules all you want and still sound like you have no idea what you're doing. That's where transcribing comes into its own, you learn exactly how the likes of Ron Carter or Ray Brown approach ii-V-I's and apply that to your playing. You learn how Paul Chambers managed to walk on a static chord for 16 bars while still maintaining forward motion. You learn how to apply their concepts to your own playing to come up with something completely new.
 
#51
ihassiphilus said:
So that gives him the right to insult someone because people think he's special, obviously. If he decided to call you an idiot, why it must be true. I mean, he's one of the more knowledgable members.

All it sounds like to me is he has his nose stuck way up into the air by having people stroke his ego for so long. I also don't doubt that he can play well; I also didn't suggest I was any better than him.

All I've suggested is to: learn chords and chord movements and practice by actually playing. Just like it was done decades ago by the very same players who I apparently have no idea about. I just said he was over-thinking. He proceeded to insult me for apparently not agreeing with him and licking his wrist.
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He's not special but he has earned the respect of many people on this forum. Whereas, others have not.
 
#52
ihassiphilus

Has the siphilus gotten to your brain already? The guy(Ed Fuqua) literally wrote the book on walking....literally!

Your would think you would know when you are outgunned.

Never underplay the usefulness of transcription on TB, clearly a lot of very good players got that way by transcribing... Sure, learn the theory first but if you want to be the best you better get cracking on how the people that came before you solved the problem.
 
#53
ihassiphilus said:
So that gives him the right to insult someone because people think he's special, obviously. If he decided to call you an idiot, why it must be true. I mean, he's one of the more knowledgeable members.

All it sounds like to me is he has his nose stuck way up into the air by having people stroke his ego for so long. I also don't doubt that he can play well; I also didn't suggest I was any better than him.

All I've suggested is to: learn chords and chord movements and practice by actually playing. Just like it was done decades ago by the very same players who I apparently have no idea about. I just said he was over-thinking. He proceeded to insult me for apparently not agreeing with him and licking his wrist.
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No, the insult was for foolishly sticking to advice that is misinformed and ill guided. I've been properly chastised, apparently the ADD generation has to be praised for every little thing as if they've achieved some Grand Victory or they get all snivelly. It may not be currently in vogue, but the concept of earning respect (as opposed to demanding it as some sort of birthright) is one that still holds value for me.

As was said, I'm sure you come by it honestly enough. We all were "Young and Foolish" once and spouted whatever crap parrot like. Until we learned better.

As was said earlier, you continue to miss the point. If you would bother to read anything I've written here, the point I've always advocated is learning to get to your own voice, not "spending ...hours to play like somebody else." But the idea that the folks who have given so much meaning to this music were just up there flailing around and came to their voice simply through some sort of trial and error is not just ludicrous, it's wrong. And provably so.

Likewise your contention that "you could play R,2,3,5 or 3,R,5,R for a major chord, why do you need to know how Ray Brown would play it?"; it's not (as has been said a number of times and in a number of different ways in this thread, a point you continue to gloss over or just not comprehend) that you "need to know" what anyone else did. You did need to develop the same skill sets that they did (and we can talk about the specifics that cats like Ray and others went through to develop them, but "just playing" was in NO WAY the totality of it) and one of the things about transcribing (not reading transcriptions, doing the transcribing yourself) is that (quoting an ealier post) are working on the mechanics of improvisation; getting a line from your ear to the air through your instrument. I don't care what Ray played, I want to play what I hear. And the way to develop that clarity , so that I'm actually playing and not just spewing gibberish (R5R3 or whatever formula) is to work on hearing.

You have very little experience, I have more. That's not ego, that's not preening. It's just fact. And one thing that my experience has shown me is that the approach and concept you outline does not lead to playing this music with much depth. Because I'm brilliant and just no these things? No, because I spoke fluent gibberish for quite a number of years. I only started playing with any kind of meaning when I started working on the concepts I've outlined.

Of course, feel free to pursue whatever path you want. I am remarkably unaffected by whatever choice you make. But I will continue to post precisely why I think the approach you have given here is not going to get someone to a place where they can communicate as a musician. This is not from someone who is "new to jazz" , I been doing this for (I'll wager) longer than you been alive. You keep doing what you're doing, you're gonna hit a dead end.
 
#56
ihassiphilus said:
I also don't doubt that he can play well; I also didn't suggest I was any better than him.
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I tend to find that I'd rather take the lessons from people who play well and who have demonstrated how well they can do the thing in question ...:eyebrow:

The very first post I made on this - I mentioned how I have learned the value of transcribing from great Jazz players, whose work I know!

I have also heard Ed's playing and would always respect his point of view and sense of humour!! ;)

I haven't heard you play and so I will respectfully decline to accept your advice !

Thanks all the same...:p
 
#58
Dear "ihassiphilus"........ delivered in a gentle, encouraging and respectful tone....:)...)

Transcribing is extremely useful and a huge part of learning music of any kind!!!

(FWIW...I have all my students transcribe walking bass lines.....and I make a point of recommending transcribing in all of my Walking Bass DVD's.)

Just remember that writing it down is all fine and dandy.....BUT.....MAKE SURE YOU CAN PLAY IT!!! If you can't play it, then writing it down doesn't help that much.

All that being said......I would encourage you to consider transcribing......I know that it's benefited me in a HUGE way. It's ultimately up to you to accept or reject this suggestion.....

Being a great musician takes time, patience, humility and a TON of perseverance.....and seemingly a lifetime of study.....at least it has for me thus far! Ha!

I hope this helps.....

Keep smiling.......:D

Sincerely,
 
#59
Ed Fuqua said:
And definitely not the last one either, dig?
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Dear Ed,

This is just a note of encouragement from me to you to let you know that I really appreciate your well documented and thoughtful answers on this subject.

You're a GREAT player, highly respected.....extremely well informed....and you're always welcome in my forum!!!

Thanks Ed!!

Your friend and fan,
 
#60
Thanks very much Todd, I appreciate your comments.

I'm not trying to score points here, it's not about coming out on top in some argument. There is a way to get to where your solo and accompaniment lines are organic, are personal and have meaning and intent. But you have to work at it.
 

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