One-piece Ebony neck?

[Alpha-Dave]

Hi folks,

I couldn't find much on this in the search function, so I wondered if it hadn't come up before.

Essentially I'm having a headless bass built, and I'm going to have a 1-piece Ebony set-neck. Do any of you think this is a terrible idea?

I'm not worried about stability of the 1-piece as I'm based in the UK, so we don't have too drastic changes in humidity or temperature.
Neither am I worried about the weight because it's going to be a headless with the strap-button at the 12th fret, so it won't neck-dive.

Am I missing anything important?

All advice appreciated.
Thanks,
David.

 

[Larry Davis]

I'm not worried about stability of the 1-piece as I'm based in the UK, so we don't have too drastic changes in humidity or temperature.

Am I missing anything important?

Yes. You're missing that the instrument will not "live" in one environment, but change from inside your home to outside, be carried around in a vehicle under heated/unheated conditions, played in a variety of ambient conditions that are all effective on the stability of a piece of long, thin piece of ebony. All subjective issues of weight, aesthetics aside it's a crap shoot. The ebony piece should be acclimated to the builders shop conditions which should be similar to the ambient conditions the instrument will live mostly in for best odds of success with a cranky wood spieces...good luck.

 

[Alpha-Dave]

Thanks Larry,

Just for clarity: do you think that simply the elastic moduls of the ebony would change with temperature/moisture, so that it would only react by moving with the forces it is under (basically the string tension, so any movement can be fixed with a truss-rod adjustment) or will the ebony actually expand in varying ways depending on the grain and make the neck twist?

The rest of the bass: fingerboard, body, top and back is going to be made from your woods, I'm particularly pleased with the finger board!

Thanks,
David.

 

[Larry Davis]

Wood is hygroscopic and expands or contracts with gained or lost ambient moisture. There are two ways this is done. One is surface changes slowly made over time.....very long cycle which is natural and generally safe and the other is quick change with dramatic, extreme fast environment changes. The T/R ratio of ebony along with it's density and subjectivity to heat absorption/dissipation can cause it to be less stable than some other woods and prone to cracking under some conditions. Good selection of stock will encourage better fiber behavior as will strict environment storage/use conditions of the instrument. Not discouraging you from doing it, just pointing out things to consider. I've cut and shipped solid one piece ebony necks and bodies before both ebony and ziricote to Australia. Go for quartersawn Mac ebony if possible. It's all about stacking the best odds for success with any wood use.

 

[powerbass]

The issue of neck stability aside, ebony, like many exotic woods, are rapidly being depleted and many species are either extinct (Brazilian Rosewood) or bordering on extinction (Mahogany) from over logging and poor natural resource management in 3rd world countries. Considering some of these environmental issues I ask, does the whole neck need to be made out of ebony? You could get 4 fingerboards plus a whole slew of nut/bridge/saddle parts out of 1 neck blank. There are other neck options that would work and sound great and don't involve using endangered woods. Check this site out to learn more about ebony and deforestation.

 

[powerbass]

sorry, here's the website
Invalid Link Removed

 

[Larry Davis]

Sorry powerbass, but the information you are sharing is way incorrect. Braz rosewood is not nor near extinction and American mahogany isn't either.

Further your link is to an article written about Dalbergia Melanoxylon, or African blackwood which is a true rosewood and not ebony. You need to read the entire article to find all the references to what it's about. While global concern for good use of natural resources is important, being aware of truth and facts are more important as a base of knowledge from which to launch crusades with credibility.

 

[tribal3140]

IE
the common misconception about trees and the worlds supply of O2.

"that decimating the worlds rainforests would have a significant effect on global saturated o2 levels"

when 75-80% of the worlds 02 comes from oceanic plants and other of the seas alges.

true the debate over ambient 02 percentage and degree of significance for a thermal or global climate effect/shift is not concluded either way.
its the "i heard that the worlds rainforests are being taken down and we'll all have problems with our breathing air" and that'll affect global climatology is the problem.

responsible timber management and sustainable practices are direly needed in todays "waste all age" but information will always be power.

and this dosent really requre an answer either way just some info.

 

[powerbass]

My main point is there are environmental issues associated w/any natural resource and we as consumers, luthiers, instrument builders have a choice as to how we use or not use a diminishing resource. These beautiful woods used in instrument building are rapidly being depleted bottom line, by logging, agriculture etc. So maybe I was wrong what species are extinct versus endangered.

What's unclear about the ebony link?
"With the high demand of ebony from the international, national, and local level, some 50,000 ebony trees are cut down in Kenya every year. There are only a few pockets of ebony forests left in Kenya, with slow and inadequate action in replanting the tree. The situation is such that Kenya has to import ebony from Tanzania to meet the growing demand for their wood carving industry. The lack of adequate infrastructure in Tanzania makes many of the trees in remote areas hard to access, and therefore "protected" in a sense. It is estimated that the remaining supplies of harvestable wood in Tanzania will be depleted in twenty to thirty years, unless corrective and regenerative measures are taken".

As for Brazilian Rosewood it is listed (CITES) as endangered and not extinct, this is from the CITES website
"Brazilian rosewood is one of the most highly prized woods in Brazil. The highest concentrations of the species are located in hygrophilous forest on rich soils in southern Bahia and northern Espirito Santo. Deforestation is occurring at a rapid rate in southern Bahia. Already noted to exhibit low population densities in the 1920s, the species continued to become increasingly rare up to the 1990s. excessive and indiscriminate exploitation and devastation of the Atlantic forest habitat are the major contributors to the species’ demise. Regeneration appears to be poor, possibly because of seed predation by rodents. The species is listed as threatened according to IBAMA and the FAO."

American Mahogany? Where are the rain forests in the US? Maybe there are a few trees in the South or Florida. Mahogany from the Amazon basin however is facing extinction. "mahogany faces commercial extinction across most of the Brazilian range within the coming decade, and possible biological extinction at local levels where logged populations are not allowed to recover regenerative capacity" from Mahogany in the Brazilian Amazon published 2002 by Imazon

I am not trying to tell people what woods they should use. I am asking a legimate question about the use of ebony for a whole neck. Is this the best use for a wood that is increasingly facing such environmental pressures? Is there another wood that would do just a good a job? With a little economy couldn't the same amount of ebony be used for many projects?

 

[Alpha-Dave]

powerbass: Good question.

The simple answer is that, yes there are alternatives but there is good justification in that I have chosen not to use this ebony for other projects and use substitutes for them.

Because this will be a set-neck headless, then the stock is actually fingerboard stock and wasn't an extra-large piece. From this stock there could have been cut 2 or possibly 3 (at a push) fingerboards; given saw width, radiusing etc..

I have bought this and 1 previous bass recently which would both have had Ebony boards, but they have actually had acrylacized-maple boards due to the look and other qualities. Therefore the net difference is that perhaps I have used up maybe 1 more board than expected, but as this will only be my 3rd bass, some of the guys with 10+ basses have had far more impact than me.



... and finally I am concerned about the lack of old trees, but there will always be more trees grown as the seeds will still exist. What concerns me far, far more is the loss of large mammals such as the Mountain Gorillas in Uganda or Tigers in India as these cannot be replaced or grown from seeds. I feel responsible tourism is where I can have a far greater effect than the wood-choices for my basses. I certainly don't think this is the place to discuss Global Warming or Carbon Footprints.

 

[Rodent]

Where are the rain forests in the US? Maybe there are a few trees in the South or Florida.

Maybe you have not heard of the great rainforests in the Pacific NW? I'm sure you are referencing only to more tropical type rainforests - but there are definitely equally important rainforests outside of the tropics. Just because it isn't hot, humid, and full of brightly colored wildlife doesn't mean it isn't a rainforest

I know, completely OT - but an important clarification to another OT post

all the best,

R

 

[Larry Davis]

My main point is there are environmental issues associated w/any natural resource and we as consumers, luthiers, instrument builders have a choice as to how we use or not use a diminishing resource. These beautiful woods used in instrument building are rapidly being depleted bottom line, by logging, agriculture etc. So maybe I was wrong what species are extinct versus endangered.

What's unclear about the ebony link?


American Mahogany? Where are the rain forests in the US?

Your point is understood, but your lack of experience, lack of knowledge about forestry, lack of knowledge about wood species tends to lower your credibility on posting about these matters.

First, your link is about AFRICAN BLACKWOOD and not ebony. The term ebony isn't being used properly in that article. Read the entire article, learn the difference between a Dalbergia and a Diospyros and you will be better informed.

American mahogany is a trade name used for genuine mahogany for..I don't know..couple hundred years.... It has nothing to do with the USA. Think South America!!! Do a simple search and this, too will be revealed in all it's glorious truth form. I have no time for a pissing contest with you so stop peeing in your own hat and start researching..or not...but you're not doing anyone any good posting bad information. Accountability has merit.

 

[Keith Guitars]

Or maybe not...but it is for me, anyway -

As a builder I would elect not to use solid ebony as a neck
material, since I don't feel it would be stable enough or
predictable enough to perform adequately.

Stiff, sure - but many woods are stiff - wenge, for example,
is an exemplary neck material IMO. Ebony is notorious for
being dimensionally unstable, and is brittle and prone to
chipping. It would be hell to shape and sand, heavy,
expensive, and visually, once finished, would probably look
like a simple black paint job.

In my experience, ebony fingerboards are most likely to
have poking fret ends, splits, and lacquer issues around
the perimeter. We also make bridges and tailpieces from
4/4 ebony, and the stuff checks and cups like nothing else.
Most ebony we've bought comes to us covered in about 1/8"
of wax...this is a pretty strong hint about its susceptibility
to moisture.

Larry's signature includes this line:

"There's no bad wood....just bad tools, bad techniques and bad applications"

This, to me, falls in the last category.

Peace,
Martin

 

[Barkless Dog]

An ebony neck would be like putting a boat anchor on a bass. That and it would cost a lot, way more than a carbon fiber neck. The wood is so dense and heavy.

 

[Larry Davis]

Most ebony we've bought comes to us covered in about 1/8"
of wax...this is a pretty strong hint about its susceptibility
to moisture.

Larry's signature includes this line:

"There's no bad wood....just bad tools, bad techniques and bad applications"

This, to me, falls in the last category.

Peace,
Martin

There's also "bad selections" Any wood that comes drenched in thick wax is going to be partially air dried at best. This is a big red flag that it should be turned on a lathe as a weed pot and not used in instrument construction without careful and long observation. Quality ebony lumber is kiln dried and much mac ebony is quartersawn also. This well processed ebony can be just fine for instrument use if selected properly for other physical and mechanical properties.

 

[Bachbass]

I built a 5 string about 9 years ago with a solid ash body
and a solid ebony neck (scarf jointed) I played it for 3 years before I sold it to a guy all to happy to own an instrument with the novelty of an all ebony neck. It played great, maintained low action , and had a dope punchy bright warm tone. It was double trussed with a single strip graphite down the center. Not a whole heck of alot of movement. Incedently I purchased the wood from good old larry when we both were living in Sacramento CA. He tryed to talk me out of it.

 

[powerbass]

This thread has turned ugly so this is my last post on this issue.
Advocating conservation and responsible use of material is pretty basic. From a historical, craftsman's perspective using rarer (exotic) woods was almost always done sparingly for small details, decoration or where a specific application called for the particular properties of that wood. Look at violins, double basses etc, do they have solid ebony necks? Look at early American furniture where most of the "exotic" wood is veneer or inlay. Judicious use of valuable material imho is what delineates good craftsmen from all the rest. Gratuitous use of "exotic" materials imho doesn't convince me of quality or added value. I've seen alot of poorly designed and poorly made furniture made from "exotic" woods. And when it comes to making a bass guitar is the solid ebony neck going to make the instrument play, sound that much better? What about PU's, amps, effects and just plain basic technique and skill. Jaco played a beat, stock Fender Jbass w/a little epoxy to help the fb.
From an environmental perspective read any news, the issue of environmental sustainability is front page everyday. The world's forests are not doing well. That is also basic. Bad information? Which species Dalbergia's, Diospyros' or mahoganies are well managed by any 3rd world country, cash strapped w/little or no environmental policies that has little industry other than logging to raise revenue? Tell me there is an inexhaustable supply of this material and that these forests are managed well w/sustainable practices? As people who work w/wood, making instruments etc., conserving resources imho should be a major concern. It was mine when I was a custom furniture maker. It's your livelyhood at stake. Less trees=less wood instruments...
So, Larry go ahead and attack me on relatively pointless grounds you've got a business to run after all.

 

[Larry Davis]

powerbase, you have not been personally "attacked", but the accuracy of the information you posted has been challenged.

 

[Suburban]

First, your link is about AFRICAN BLACKWOOD and not ebony. The term ebony isn't being used properly in that article. Read the entire article, learn the difference between a Dalbergia and a Diospyros and you will be better informed.

Well, Larry....
Everywhere else, the latin name for ebony is Dalbergia Melanoxylon.
Different languages trade names include Ebenholz, Pau Preto, Grenadille, Ebano, Grenadilla, Mpingo, Granadilla, Grenadile - and - Ebony!

What is, in your view, a true ebony?

 

[Larry Davis]

Well, Larry....
Everywhere else, the latin name for ebony is Dalbergia Melanoxylon.
Different languages trade names include Ebenholz, Pau Preto, Grenadille, Ebano, Grenadilla, Mpingo, Granadilla, Grenadile - and - Ebony!

What is, in your view, a true ebony?

...sigh... Ebony is genus Diospyrus of the family Ebenaceae. Rosewood is genus Dalbergia of the family Leguminosae. Dalbergia melanoxylon is a true ROSEWOOD traded as African Blackwood, not an ebony. This thread is about EBONY, not rosewood!!! Trade names are irrelevant to factual assignment of wood species botanically. A true ebony is not defined by "me" or my "view" but by scientific assignment ... sigh...