Only roasted maple in the future?

[Kevin Doyle]

Seeing where you are at on a roasted neck isn't difficult, if you do this:

View attachment 7225770

I play on a lot of very dark stages, and this helps me a lot.

I also have no position markers on my fretboards - when I'm playing, I'm never in a position to see them anyway, so I go with uninterrupted wood grain for maximum stiffness.

I love that. Did you create those yourself? I assume they are stickers?

 

[Wood and Wire]

So I have to ask, given your expertise, is my instrument with an excessively stiff roasted neck that's hard to adjust and literally bending the truss rod adjustment tool to do so considered normal, or an anomaly?

At the risk of telling you something you already know: are you turning the truss rod wheel / nut, and asking it to brute force the neck into the desired amount of relief?

With single action truss rods, when reducing relief, it's generally a good idea to manually flex the neck to the desired position, and then adjust the nut so that it holds in place.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Pluses are lighter, stronger and more resonant. Those who favor that will want that.

Torrifaction also makes the wood (maple, spruce, Ash, walnut) hydrophobic allowing the wood to be used unfinished.

Negatives, more brittle.
I have a suspicion that the forcible extraction of water in such a rapid fashion MUST have some negative effect on the cellular structure as the delicate membrane has the water RIPPED out of its core.
The vascular system (end grain) similarly must react to this high vacuum high heat process with SOME negatives.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

A friend owns at least two dozen basses, including 3 or 4 with roasted necks. He's done some testing and is convinced that roasted maple has a softer tone, with less edge/presence/brightness as non-roasted. I haven't seen much talk about this, but if he's correct, I'd prefer non-roasted for tone alone, even though I think roasted looks gorgeous with the right build.


I fully believe that both roasted and non-roasted maple will remain available going forward. However this won't be true for every model of every bass. Meaning: some models will only offer one or the other, rather than a choice.

The qualities of the original material are enhanced.

IF it was crap wood to begin with (grain structure) it will be better crap after the Torrifaction process.

This process allows previously unusable wood to be elevated to acceptable levels.

Also: allows GREEN woods to be processed into usable material within days, the several year process of kiln drying, then stacking to age naturally over time is compressed into days.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

So I have to ask, given your expertise, is my instrument with an excessively stiff roasted neck that's hard to adjust and literally bending the truss rod adjustment tool to do so considered normal, or an anomaly?

Not normal.
Also 100% unrelated to “roasting”

 

[Fuzzbass]

The qualities of the original material are enhanced.

IF it was crap wood to begin with (grain structure) it will be better crap after the Torrifaction process.

This process allows previously unusable wood to be elevated to acceptable levels.

Also: allows GREEN woods to be processed into usable material within days, the several year process of kiln drying, then stacking to age naturally over time is compressed into days.

Right, I knew most of that, but my biggest question has been on the difference in tone between non-roasted and roasted maple. Roasting changes the quality of the wood -- unquestionably for the better, regarding stability. It only makes sense that tonal response will also change, however there's no guarantee that the resulting tone will be better. As when comparing tonewoods of different species, the operative word is "different", with "better" being entirely subjective.

I haven't heard much on this, but what I have heard is that roasted sounds warmer than unroasted -- no pun intended, obviously! If accurate, it's likely that my ears will prefer the tone of unroasted, because I've preferred maple necked basses for decades. But I haven't attempted any all-else-being-equal tests as a friend has; I don't even own a roasted neck bass.

 

[JIO]

Torrifaction also makes the wood (maple, spruce, Ash, walnut) hydrophobic allowing the wood to be used unfinished.

Negatives, more brittle.
I have a suspicion that the forcible extraction of water in such a rapid fashion MUST have some negative effect on the cellular structure as the delicate membrane has the water RIPPED out of its core.
The vascular system (end grain) similarly must react to this high vacuum high heat process with SOME negatives.

From what I understand, the process heats the sap to the walls of each fiber (sorta' like glazing) which hardens when cooled to those walls promoting acoustic resonance. But I agree speaking from personal experience, if hyper torrified it leads to it being brittle.

I cut a body from one such slab of already light weight swamp ash and after shaping/routing I coated it with (very viscous) wood hardener. I sent it to Brooklyn master luthier Mas Hino for assemble (it was a tag-team project ) and he further dipped it in an epoxy bath before spraying it with Lakeshore Blue. Chris Kuffner (who owns the bass) has played it over years of touring. (built it in 2018) I saw/heard him recently playing with kick-ass blueswoman Joanne Shaw Taylor rockin' his "Corvette/Vette" and the body has held up really well for a touring axe.

Chris has back issues and wanted a very light 5'r short-scale for standing on stage for hours. The bass ended up weighing under 7lbs if I remember correctly.

Here's my thread on the bass - https://www.talkbass.com/threads/lightweight-short-scale-5r.1341147/page-5

 

[Polfuste]

I think it depend on cost reduction: if roasted allows cost reduction for the builder, it could become the standard and non roasted become an option on upper price range.

 

[JIO]

Right, I knew most of that, but my biggest question has been on the difference in tone between non-roasted and roasted maple. Roasting changes the quality of the wood -- unquestionably for the better, regarding stability. It only makes sense that tonal response will also change, however there's no guarantee that the resulting tone will be better. As when comparing tonewoods of different species, the operative word is "different", with "better" being entirely subjective.

I haven't heard much on this, but what I have heard is that roasted sounds warmer than unroasted -- no pun intended, obviously! If accurate, it's likely that my ears will prefer the tone of unroasted, because I've preferred maple necked basses for decades. But I haven't attempted any all-else-being-equal tests as a friend has; I don't even own a roasted neck bass.

Chris's 'Vette' (background above) has an Agullar 18v pre thru an Agullar amp and it sounds awesome live. That and the fact that Chris is an awesome player! As it's a one-off, there is no way to compare it to anything. So in summery, even if torrification is pushed to the extreme, it can still be used to create a killer, road tested axe.

 

[JIO]

The qualities of the original material are enhanced.

IF it was crap wood to begin with (grain structure) it will be better crap after the Torrifaction process.

This process allows previously unusable wood to be elevated to acceptable levels.

Also: allows GREEN woods to be processed into usable material within days, the several year process of kiln drying, then stacking to age naturally over time is compressed into days.

exactly

 

[JIO]

I think it depend on cost reduction: if roasted allows cost reduction for the builder, it could become the standard and non roasted become an option on upper price range.

Much like anything. If players like the lightness of weight and sound of torrified basses, more builders will use it and more wood suppliers will offer doing it eventually bringing the price down. Many builders are already offering it as an option so for the time being it costs more for that choice which is justified as it's added overhead to their cost.

 

[spade2you]

I have 2 similar Ibanez guitars. One with all roasted maple for the neck. The other has a conventional maple and rosewood fretboard. I'm officially neutral on roasted maple. I may or may not order it on future stuff.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Chris's 'Vette' (background above) has an Agullar 18v pre thru an Agullar amp and it sounds awesome live. That and the fact that Chris is an awesome player! As it's a one-off, there is no way to compare it to anything. So in summery, even if torrification is pushed to the extreme, it can still be used to create a killer, road tested axe.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone should have concerns about the tone of a roasted neck. Great tones can come from many kinds of necks: mahogany, spruce, aluminum, and I personally get killer tones from my composite-necked Zon. I'm simply wondering about differences in tone between roasted and non-roasted maple necks.

No doubt there is some tonal difference, I'd just like to know more about the nature of the difference, and how much difference. I'm not in the market for another bass right now, but if I were I would lean toward roasted for the improved stability, in particular with figured wood, and also the richer/darker colors which would work better with certain color schemes (I try to order a "vintage tint" on non-roasted maple necks because I prefer that to the pale natural color).

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Much like anything. If players like the lightness of weight and sound of torrified basses, more builders will use it and more wood suppliers will offer doing it eventually bringing the price down. Many builders are already offering it as an option so for the time being it costs more for that choice which is justified as it's added overhead to their cost.

Due to the cost of the raw materials from the supplier: at volume the differences are negligible.
If you factor in that Rosted maple for the neck shaft does not need finishing the cost differential is nearly a wash.

It is perceived as a premium, and being up charged accordingly.

 

[JIO]

I didn't mean to imply that anyone should have concerns about the tone of a roasted neck. Great tones can come from many kinds of necks: mahogany, spruce, aluminum, and I personally get killer tones from my composite-necked Zon. I'm simply wondering about differences in tone between roasted and non-roasted maple necks.

No doubt there is some tonal difference, I'd just like to know more about the nature of the difference, and how much difference. I'm not in the market for another bass right now, but if I were I would lean toward roasted for the improved stability, in particular with figured wood, and also the richer/darker colors which would work better with certain color schemes (I try to order a "vintage tint" on non-roasted maple necks because I prefer that to the pale natural color).

I think you would just have to experience one in person by playing it. On-line 'sample' vids are informative but I never consider them definitive on how a bass sounds. The differences would have to be strictly A-B'd in person in every way to offer close to a legitimate comparison. So like pu's, electronics, strings or wood - each is part of the mix on how a bass sounds. My primary consideration using 'roasted' wood for a bass is lighter weight. After that as long as it sounds 'good', I'm satisfied.

 

[Fuzzbass]

I think you would just have to experience one in person by playing it. On-line 'sample' vids are informative but I never consider them definitive on how a bass sounds. The differences would have to be strictly A-B'd in every way to offer close to a legitimate comparison. So like pu's, electronics, strings or wood - each is part of the mix on how a bass sounds.

Using Warmoth parts a friend compared unroasted versus roasted necks (a couple of each) on the same bass bodies, and came to the conclusion that roasted is warmer than unroasted. He makes audio gear and I definitely trust his ears, but I'm looking for more data points.

I'm not set up for that kind of testing myself. I played two of the test basses, one with roasted neck and the other non-roasted, but it wasn't an all-else-being-equal test because I didn't test the two necks on the same body.

 

[JIO]

Using Warmoth parts a friend compared unroasted versus roasted necks (a couple of each) on the same bass bodies, and came to the conclusion that roasted is warmer than unroasted. He makes audio gear and I definitely trust his ears, but I'm looking for more data points.

I'm not set up for that kind of testing myself. I played two of the test basses, one with roasted neck and the other non-roasted, but it wasn't an all-else-being-equal test because I didn't test the two necks on the same body.

I own and play a variety of basses, each with its own unique sound/tone - no two are alike. I made two 4 stringers and two 5 stringers of the same design using all the same parts/strings etc but with different woods, and as much as they looked the same and sounded similar - they sounded different from each other. If I had to only play one bass, it would be difficult as each one inspires me to play to its unique quality of output. None had any roasted wood - more a point about how different 'the same' can be.