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[SteveCS]

Which CNC machine is best for Metal?

The one with the hardest and sharpest tool?

 

[SteveCS]

Oh Come On! NO luthier is as consistently accurate as the machines are. Hand work is not better - it is just hand work. Trial and error is not a substitute for getting it right the first time.
You sure would not want your mobile phone or computer or auto engine to be hand fitted and assembled. The key is for the machine to be properly programmed.
When they are, you end up with something like the new Squiers that are gig-worthy and sell for less than $200, and the awesome new Warwicks.

And sure the wood expands and contracts, etc. but the better the starting point the less the effect.

Absolutely agree. A well maintained tight-tolerance CNC machine with well maintained tools/cutters and properly programmed will outperform all but the most highly skilled craftsman in the vast majority of cases. Machines have been used for decades with people sticking square wood in one end and getting curved wood out of the other - why single out CNC, which after all is only a term for the controller not the task performed by the machine. And don't forget, we all know what happens when jigs, tooling and machines are not maintained - CBS Fender - yet the fantastic 50's and 60's instruments we all covet were produced by the very same jigs, tooling and machines.

 

[OldogNewTrick]

Wow, this discussion is sooo TalkBass...

I work for a company who have supplied a number of machines into the Warwick factory and I am friendly with the project engineer who designed and supervised the installation of the supplied line components.

Warwick did considerable pre-testing in our factory to ensure the equipment will meet their process requirements. My buddy told me numerous stories what sticklers for accuracy and tight tolerances they were during the installation.
As to their attention to moisture content of the wood, look at Invalid Link Removed of the factory tour. It is nearly impossible (within economically viable parameters) to be more attentive to m/c.

Warwick show excellent woodworking craftsmanship and skill in designing and maintaining a production line that will deliver truly unrivalled consistency in the quality of their instruments.
All instrument builders, craftsmen and factories alike, use machines. Be it a surfacer/thicknesser or a router or a 5-axis CNC router. They are all just tools.
The quality of the product is determined by its design and the execution of the production process. Which tool is the right one, depends mostly on production scale and acceptable component tolerances.
Wawick went all the way. Kudos to them.
And our benefit isno more hunting for that "good one"

And no, I do not own a Warwick. Most of my instruments are handbuilt, one from a master luthier.
However the quality of their instruments is extremely enticing....

 

[MichaelOz]

It's just string theory, nothing too complicated really.

So 5 string IS better than 3?

Regards,
Michael

 

[Snaxster]

women of a secret Inuit village gently chew the blanks into proper bass shapes. Their saliva passively soaks the wood resulting in a tone so unsurpassed

"gently"...

 

[Snaxster]

And no, I do not own a Warwick.

I work for a company who have supplied a number of machines into the Warwick factory

So your point is that even though you do not own a Warwick bass, the fact that you have a vested interest does not bias you?

 

[Doctor J]

So your point is that even though you do not own a Warwick bass, the fact that you have a vested interest does not bias you?

Another way to look at it is that he's more qualified to make an informed comment than most of us

 

[OldogNewTrick]

So your point is that even though you do not own a Warwick bass, the fact that you have a vested interest does not bias you?

Call it what you may.
From a, or better, my, professional (= having a degree in and making my living from) point of view, Warwick run a production line which adheres to exceptionally high standards of woodworking AND instrument building.
And yes, they use our machines, however not the 5-axis CNC centres, so what ?!?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Correct, although it is a loosing argument here.
I too have made some difficult parts with Solid Works on a Hauss multi-turret machine, the last big project was reed valve cages for racing 2-stroke Kawa 750's from the early 70'; very complex 4"x3" deep tapered cavities in 6061T6 alloy.
I've tried to explain to folks on this board that once a design is perfected, using CNC technology is the way to maintain perfection.
It's a lost cause as many believe that machines = evil and handmade = best.
These folks have also not attempted to make 100 of the same exact part holding tolerances to the 3rd or 4th decimal point.

hdracer, do you know if the PLEK machines can maintain anything close to the tolerances of a decent mill or lathe (either manual or CNC)?
I get the basics but have never seen one in use.

Just as a side curiosity, you may be interested in the Chapman Railboard. One piece of aluminum including the frets. CNC'ed to perfection and then anodized.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Snaxster]

Another way to look at it is that he's more qualified to make an informed comment than most of us

There are many ways to look at it. I only reacted to his decision to claim impartiality despite his admission of having a vested interest. Had he omitted the disclaimer, about not owning a Warwick, I would not have considered his post any different from the other comments by subject matter experts.

 

[Canadian APII]

Another ridiculous assumption....you seriously expect a modern factory is going to...
a) not check the first part off the program?
b) not check any additional parts and/or have the ability to identify out of spec parts?

Have you not had a car with a recall from manufacturing errors?

 

[basslifter]

I'd prefer something organic, myself, gnawed into shape by beavers.

A hardy chuckle to start my day

 

[basslifter]

As long as humans choose the wood. That is the magic....finding the right piece of wood.
Have you ever been on a tour of the Louisville Slugger factory? That will tell you all you need to know in 20 minutes. Demo of old hand crafty way. Demo of mass produced public way. Demo of MLB pro way. Guess how the pro bats are made?

 

[Canadian APII]

A mistake is still a mistake...but they're highly more likely to come from a human than from a machine following a mathematically calibrated template.

I disagree. In my experience I have had to repair manufacturing errors regularly. I had a $60,000 MILSPEC computer card one day that wouldn't fit. Inspecting it I noticed the locating pins were switched around. Male for female, female for male. Upon contacting the manufacturer we were told the entire production run had the same error. A few weeks ago I rceived five computers and compatible hard drive cages. The cages wouldn't fit and I had to come up with a fix for the problem. Early in my career I had a piece of machinery that had shear pins. The manufacturer supplied sheer pins were a few thousandths out so many times I had to resize new shear pins. A luthier will make a mistake either fix it or toss that one piece in the garbage and make sure the remaining are free from that mistake.
Many times a mass produced piece will get through with errors because the operator had seen it that way many times before. We trust tech too much in this age. The operator relies that the program will produce the correct piece. He or she does not care what the piece is, just that the machine is spitting out the exact same piece that it has been doing. Automotive recall anybody?

 

[Happynoj]

Hey, do I recall Travis Bean ads boasting about their alloy necks made from aircraft-grade aluminum billets, and umpteen coats of clear aircraft lacquer? I think I do.

From now on, I'm using "aircraft grade" as my highest quality rating for everything. Wood, hardware, amps, rat fur, tolex, cables, etc......and of course.....TONE.

That's what I want...."aircraft-grade tone". Accept no substitutes!

Probably good for the aircraft-carrier style extended-range fretboards!

 

[Canadian APII]

Just as a side curiosity, you may be interested in the Chapman Railboard. One piece of aluminum including the frets. CNC'ed to perfection and then anodized.

Invalid Link Removed

And it sounds like you are playing a bathroom tub curtain rod. I don't like the tone at all. Interesting wall art though.

 

[MVE]

Hey, do I recall Travis Bean ads boasting about their alloy necks made from aircraft-grade aluminum billets, and umpteen coats of clear aircraft lacquer? I think I do.

From now on, I'm using "aircraft grade" as my highest quality rating for everything. Wood, hardware, amps, rat fur, tolex, cables, etc......and of course.....TONE.

That's what I want...."aircraft-grade tone". Accept no substitutes!

There is a next step up... NASA grade.
That's right, I play the same bass astronauts play on the ISS.
(It's kinda heavy and there are no strap buttons, only a piece of Velcro on the back that doesn't seen to do anything, but this thing rocks!!!)

 

[Canadian APII]

Don't get me wrong I don't say we should shun CNC. I see it as a tool and luthiers should be involved in all aspects of the build. The Warwick add implies that luthiers are no longer needed. That is far from the truth and implies they only need to assemble the bass and it will be perfect. Perfection is subjective with each individual judging it as he sees fit.

 

[Canadian APII]

Oh Come On! NO luthier is as consistently accurate as the machines are. Hand work is not better - it is just hand work. Trial and error is not a substitute for getting it right the first time.
You sure would not want your mobile phone or computer or auto engine to be hand fitted and assembled. The key is for the machine to be properly programmed.
When they are, you end up with something like the new Squiers that are gig-worthy and sell for less than $200, and the awesome new Warwicks.

And sure the wood expands and contracts, etc. but the better the starting point the less the effect.

And Stradivarius should have used CNC too.

 

[Canadian APII]

Yes, a human luthier can produce an amazing instrument. Better, than anything machine made. There is of course an art, as well as a craft.

But, for those of us who can not afford master craftsmen built instruments, CNC makes high quality mass production, possible. And the better the CNC the better the instrument.

I have an ESP LTD B-4 with an amazing neck, 5 piece laminate, with an angled headstock and volute. It's a elegant design that ensures a consistent break angle without string trees. Fender didn't do that, because Leo was working with mid century tech, and it had to be doable with semi skilled labor. A neck like my ESP, would easily cost $1000 (if not more) if made by hand. The entire bass cost $500.

Technology does put people out of jobs, takes away some of the art, but it also allows the common man, access to well made products at affordable prices.

Anyway, Warwick is a German company, so of course they are going to advertise there superior technology!

BTW, I own a German car, but it's MIM.

Yay Volkswagon.....