Opinions: QSC Touchmix 16 vs Behringer x32 Rack

[rob2966]

Hey everyone,

I am looking for opinions on these two digital mixers. Just to provide some background, I am looking for something to replace a Mackie ONYX 1640 board so 16 input channels + 6 AUX sends (more is a bonus but don't really need anything beyond that). I will be using it for mixing my own bands, local venues without sound, and no touring (I take very good care of my gear so it is not likely to see any excessive wear and tear).

I have narrowed it down to the following two products for one main reason. While the wireless/iPad control is likely to be my main interface, I am not comfortable with it being my only option. Both of these units can be controlled directly.

I also don't really like the iPad docking style of the Mackie DL mixers so I have discounted those.

So, obviously the form factor is very different, and if I was in a touring band I think the rackable x32 would be the automatic choice; however, it suspect it is overkill for my needs. Also, in general I always shy away from any Behringer product; however, their x32 systems seem to have a proven track record in many professional tours and installations.

The two items are the exact same price at Sweetwater ($1199) so that make cost a moot point. Both are also reviewed at 4.5/5 stars with 25+ reviews so no real difference there.

I did download the mix apps for both and it is pretty obvious that the QSC is a simpler system. However, that could be a good thing.

I seem to flip-flop daily between these two options. Looking for some feedback on how people like them, if there are any significant features missing on one of the units that may be important, etc. All opinions welcome.

Later
Rob

 

[Jools4001]

I can't speak about the QSC because I know nothing about them, but my X32 rack has been at the heart of my PA system for at least 18 months now. Like you, I was wary of the Behringer reputation when I was looking to replace my big bulky analogue Yamaha MG2414FX but decided to take the plunge based on the reputation it was developing, and the Midas connection. I'd had a few bits of Behringer outboard kit before (32 band graphic, feedback destroyer that sort of thing) but only stuff that was non-critical; this sort of equipment was obviously built to a budget and was what you would expect from Beri - it is what it is, but having said that, it never let me down either.

From the moment I unboxed the X32, I knew that this was in a different league to other Behringer stuff. It has a strong chunky build quality, the chassis is thick and rugged the switches and rotarys have a solid, consistent feel and it just had a quality vibe about it.

When I got it, I was building up a bigger PA because I had the notion of hiring myself out as a sound guy when I wasn't playing myself, and I did a couple of small festival gigs with it, but that fell by the wayside because of my wife's health (she has MS and I'm also her carer) so now I just use it for my own band, where it is ridiculously overspecced for a bar band...but hey, better to have it and not need it right?

I continue to be amazed at how flexible it is. I've ditched all my other outboard gear because the X32 FX rack has everything I need, and I have now configured scenes for my band's setup and baseline EQ settings for all of the regular venues we play. Controlling it from a laptop, an IOS device or Android stuff is really cool, with some really helpful tools. It has a six band parametric on every output buss, so I have used that with settings that I got from RTA-ing my mains and monitors in open air...that's the last thing the signal sees before it hits the poweramps so it tricks the system into thinking that it's driving nominally flat response speakers. I've then got a 32 band graphic inserted on the monitor busses and the mains and I use that to tweak the EQ for the room (like I said, I have instant recall of different eq for various rooms now that gets me in the ballpark and good eq is only usually a minor nudges here and there) what REALLY helps here is that the EQ has an RTA feature where you can have a bar or spectrograph display...so I use the spectrograph to ring out the monitors, gradually increasing the gain and if a certain frequency starts to ring you see it instantly on the graphic eq overlay and you can just take that frequency out. Rinse and repeat until you've isolated all the hot frequencies then back the gain off a few dB to give you a bit of headroom...do that with all four monitors and you have a virtually feedback free monitor system (I say virtually because despite being told a thousand times the singer is always going to cup the mic, or point it straight at the monitors - and the system is good but it can't defy the laws of physics).

I could go on and on but suffice it to say I have managed to build a system that has lots and lots of pro features (including being able to record each channel direct to a laptop or DAW), but is as quick to set up as a mixer amp. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this is the most impressive single piece of equipment that I've ever bought (and I have some nice stuff).

 

[SpectorBass]

I'll second the X32Rack vote.

I've been using mine non-stop for about 2+ years now. While it's definitely overkill for a bar band situation, I've grown rather accustomed to being able to have stereo IEM sends, multiple effects, and other such ridiculousness in small venues.

The biggest draw for me which, by the sounds of it, also applies to you is using it for doing live sound gigs. I'm a monitor engineer when I'm not playing bass, and also do a few FOH gigs. The console by itself is great for gigs, but the scalability of the X32 system is what really appeals to me. A lot of local venues have X32s in them now, so I can tap my rack in to the FOH console to give myself an indepenent monitor board, I can use my rack as a digital snake, I can use another X32 product or their stageboxes to add inputs to my rack. The X32 'network' is extremely valuable to me, and was a big draw to buying the rack over any of the other digital products out there.

Hope that helps.

 

[DirtDog]

Are you considering any units in the Presonus StudioLive series? Functionality is pretty much the same as @Jools4001 describes but has the traditional desktop form factor. I've used both the X32 and the Presonus VSL tablet/remote interfaces and I found the Presonus interface MUCH easier to use in that most controls are right there on the surface and deeper channel controls only require you to rotate the tablet 90 degrees.

I don't know much about the QSC Touchmix, but both the X32 or the Presonus SL series are damned good solutions/options in this space. I think your real choice would be rack vs. desktop form factor. X32 comes as a desktop but at a much higher price than the X32 rack. X32 also has a prodigious channel count (40 inputs?) vs 16 or 24 with the Presonus.

 

[walterw]

While the wireless/iPad control is likely to be my main interface, I am not comfortable with it being my only option. Both of these units can be controlled directly.

I also don't really like the iPad docking style of the Mackie DL mixers so I have discounted those.

i ran a DL1608 for a while with a cablejive docking extender cable to hardwire the connection, worked pretty well. (i too didn't want to lock my ipad in there every time, and didn't want to take my ipad out of its case).

it was the 30-pin version, but i'm sure the Invalid Link Removed would do as well. cheap cable extenders don't work right, skip those. also, no longer than 2 feet or you get interference, and you want to start with the ipad fully charged up, or the charging process can create line noise along the cable and cause problems.

the other solution (which i think more people do) is just a second ipad left docked in the mixer so it's always ready to go if there are any wifi issues. used ipad minis and such are cheap now and work fine.

they just dropped the price on the DL, i suppose because the behringer XR18 is kicking its butt, so it's turning into a pretty good deal. the mackie DL interface is very intuitive and ergonomic, so it's still worth a hard look.

 

[Moxsam]

I had the same concerns as you when I bought my digital mixer. I didn't want to buy something that was solely at the mercy of an iPad to use.

I thought about the X32 rack as well but from what I have read the physical interface isn't user friendly and would be a serious burden onstage if you were trying to use it that way. I also think it is WAY overkill just doing your own band's sound.

I decided on the QSC Touchmix 16 and I couldn't be happier. In my opinion it is the perfect set up for a band. I thought I would be using iPad control more but I actually prefer to just use the screen on the mixer itself. The work flow is much faster that way. One hand on the screen making selections and the other hand on the knob adjusting parameters. It is very slick.

People rave about the Mackie DL1608 being intuitive to use. I think the Touchmix is far better in this regard. It definitely has the Behringer beat IMO. Spend some time with the app on your tablet and you will see.

P.S. Support on the QSC Forum has been superb.

 

[popgadget]

I've got a Yamaha O1v96, a couple of A&H Mixwiz3's and just got an XR18.
Haven't used anything but the XR18 since I got it, aside from pretty much a total lack of documentation, and a different appearance and feature set on every different device (PC, Android and iPad) it's an amazing piece. It's greatest failing is the onboard WIFI, connecting a decent dual band router to it with a cat 5 cable cures that completely.

 

[walterw]

Spend some time with the app on your tablet and you will see.

key point!

you can get all these apps for free, so might as well download them to your ipad and play with them in demo mode to get a feel for which workflow you like best.

 

[4Mal]

I have a DL-1608 and Presonus 16.4.2 - actually 2 of those as I'm also doing sound company gigs... The Mackie software is very good. I run the 1608 for my band due the ease of use and the form factor. Sound comany gigs, the SL board(s) get the call.

A used 16.4.2 is pretty competitive on the used market. $700 to $800 ... Pretty much I see it as the entry level, pro-level board... the mic pre's are really good, fat channel processing is oh so sweet, the remote software is very well thought out, the feature set is just incredibly useful... The live capture software is super easy to work with and capture what you are mixing and the Studio One integration is super smooth. I wouldn't ignore it...

 

[seamonkey]

One thing Mackie didn't do was full midi implementation.
On a x32 you can get a midi controller, full of knobs, BCF or X touch, and add all the knobs you'd need.
The x32 itself is a great layout, and the app looks great. If you're doing all the mixing, smaller might be better.

 

[rob2966]

Thanks for all the replies. In the end I decided to go with the x32 rack option. I did download the TouchMix and x32 iPad apps and yes, the Touchmix app is really well laid out and easy to use; however, with some playing around the x32 app also started to make sense too. If someone was new to mixing, etc. the x32 learning-curve would be incredibly steep, they really do assume you have some level of experience where the TouchMix is very easy right off the bat, especially with the Wizard's and presets.

In the end I think the features that won me over were:
- rackmount. I like the protection that offers, accidents do happen.
- expandability. Although the x32 rack is more than enough for the forseeable future, if I did need to expand it it would be very easy to do. There is a lot of different pieces of HW in the x32 family (digital snakes, personal monitor controllers, etc.)
- in my experience gigging, the x32 seems to be establishing itself as the digital mixing standard (I kind of liken it to ProTools, steeper learning curve, but more power and what the "pros" use). The fact that there are so many out there also speaks well to its design quality and support, both from Behringer and 3rd party (for example, tons of x32 tutorials on YouTube).

I should have it by Friday, looking forward to experimenting over the weekend.

Thanks
Rob

 

[ultra60]

I'm a little late to the party. I have a touchmix 16 and love it. No experience with the Behringer, but is it really becoming the digital mixing standard? I was not aware that the Behringer name was highly regarded in the pro sound world.

 

[4Mal]

It doesn't seem to be in my area... The Soundcraft Expression boards seem to be what the medium size guys are using. Most of those guys have the Exp III with matrix module side stage and the Expression III at FOH. I'm not a big Harmon fan which will probably keep me out of that board when the time comes to upgrade.

I'm Presonus for the most part. There are at least 3 other guys using them here though they are more band related and less sound company oriented than me. One of my sound company competitors uses an X32. I did see one in use with Dave Mason's Traffic Jam last fall. They were doing a west coast van and RV tour so it may have been what was expedient.

The tops dog's in the Portland/Seattle scene seem to be either Midas or Yamaha - probably both as that is rider friendly. I have yet to see Behringer anything spc'ed on a rider... Haven't seen Presonus Spec'd either though... I don't process more than a couple of riders a year though. Mostly I tell a promoter what we'll bring after getting an old, innaccurate stage plot and input list ;-)

As far as what I see... I expect the new Yamaha boards to generate some buzz in the mid range. They have been strong in the touring high end, are known for reliability and configurability. The top end A&H boards could be a contender. I see anything Harmon related in the upper end as ripe for the picking due to the customer service angle... They will continue to sell tonnage in commodtity items through guitar center, AMS and Musicians friend...

 

[s0c9]

I was not aware that the Behringer name was highly regarded in the pro sound world.

It's not.. .never has been at the top level. I doubt it ever will be.

That said.. most churches in my area and many, many working bands I know are using Behringer digital consoles.. X32 and XR series. Based on Midas preamps and the M32 design, they hit it out of the park.
Hard to beat the price/feature point and easy to learn. The ability to save settings to a USB stick works great for many FOH guys.. they save their last show, retrieve the settings next time round. Can save for each band/venue..

From what I've read (on prosound forum and other places) Behringer's X32 series has become the standard by which other small-footprint digital consoles are measured. Based on my experience using Behringer, Presonus, Yammy and A&H consoles.. it boils down to work flow.
Do you like the interface???

They are digital consoles, and all offer similar features. A HUUUGE step up from analog. The pros/audiophiles will ramble on about whose preamps sound better and which console is the cleanest.. for live audio (IME) its a meh! They ALL sound good.. the rest is up to the users skills and like/dislike of the UI.
Reliability does not seem to be an issue - tho some tech have said the get a lot of repairs. idk.. the few shops around here that I checked with before my band went with the X32 Producer did not confirm that.. <shrug>. 2 yrs later.. it's still going strong!

 

[ultra60]

Thanks for the responses... my question was a little unfair to Behringer... I did say pro sound level, but I did not mean to infer national touring acts, or those providing sound at a professional level, etc. I realize they would not use a Touchmix either.

While I find the Touchmix suits my needs, I am always looking for something better... or perceived to be better. The A/H qu16 looks cool to me. Just not sure I could spend that kind of dough on a Behringer product.

 

[s0c9]

Thanks for the responses... my question was a little unfair to Behringer... I did say pro sound level, but I did not mean to infer national touring acts, or those providing sound at a professional level, etc. I realize they would not use a Touchmix either.

While I find the Touchmix suits my needs, I am always looking for something better... or perceived to be better. The A/H qu16 looks cool to me. Just not sure I could spend that kind of dough on a Behringer product.

For many of Behringer's products.. I'd be with you.
But for digital consoles??
Replace Behringer with "Midas"!! Does that change your mind??? Because other than the label and some coloring, essentially the M32 = X32.
Go read the OM, look at (download) the control apps.. compare.
I control my IEM mix on the X32 with the Midas monitor mix app.. !!

 

[rob2966]

Yeah, my comment wasn't to imply that the x32 is the go-to system of professional touring acts (I don't have the visibility into that world to know what is commonly used). However, locally we play a bunch of a) clubs with their own sound or b) events where we hire a local sound company. It seems many of the clubs use the x32 system (otherwise they still have an older analog system, I don't recall seeing any other digital system besides x32) and the few companies that we hire to run our sound also all used x32 systems.

Anyway, I have spent a bunch of time over the weekend setting the system up and really learning how to use it. A bit of a learning curve but not too bad (assuming you have some understanding going in). And I also had the internet handy to answer questions etc.

It will truly be put to the test this coming weekend (3-set wedding gig). I will still take my Mackie analog board, just in case, but have no plans to set it up.

Only thing I would like to see improved so far, and it has been mentioned by x32 users a lot. Would be nice if the front-panel USB interface supported MP3/AAC as well as WAV. Not a big deal, but would be nice to have. Otherwise I am incredibly impressed so far, and can't wait to put it to use.

Later
Rob

 

[s0c9]

It will truly be put to the test this coming weekend (3-set wedding gig). I will still take my Mackie analog board, just in case, but have no plans to set it up.

Be careful of the desire to "over engineer" your mix.. just because gates, EQ, compression, on-board effects can be applied to each input (and many output busses) does not mean they should be.
Start by mapping your analog experiences... if you did NOT put compression on a channel before, START by not putting it on the digital channel.
Sure, EQ is generally a must, but overuse of gates, compression (especially) and effects is far worse than judicious or no use.

IF you are feeding FOH channels back into your monitor mix.. do NOT put compression on vocals.. you'll blow out their voices!
Let us know how it goes..

 

[rob2966]

That is excellent advice. We have "suffered" enough in the past with sound people who "over-played" with their new digital mixer toy that I am keenly aware of this issue. My current band setup for this weekend has no gates/comp on any inputs. I have the 31-band EQs ready to go on each monitor mix bus, but they are currently disabled and there is a good chance they will stay that way (unless I am getting any feedback issues). Both my bands are very good about controlling stage volume so usually feedback from the monitors isn't too much of an issue.

Just setting up a couple of basic fx (reverb/delay) and I'll see what sounds best on the vocals once we sound check.

The only new "experiment" option is I have set up 3 of the matrix mixs for Main L&R and a mono SUB (using BW24 filters for crossovers @ 100Hz). I will run some music through the system when set up, make sure there aren't any obvious holes. If that is giving me grief, I will just switch the OUT 7&8 back to MAIN LR, and put OUT 6 (SUB) onto an empty mix bus and just send kick, bass, etc to the sub (which is what I have done on my analog system in the past).

Anyway, definitely appreciate the advice. While I have a reasonably understanding of running sound, I am still learning all the time.

Later
Rob

 

[s0c9]

Sounds like you have a plan !!
We have always used 7/8 for L/R out and either:

• Run into the DSP/crossover - 3 way
• Feed to House
• Not use if splitting off house snake

When used, I believe xover is set to LW24 @ 94Hz. Speakers are dual 15 tops, with single 18 subs (per side). I don't own this PA, and have little to do with the setup.
For 60% of our gigs, we go direct to (or split off) house.