Double Bass Orchestral Technique & Method Studies Thread

[BGreaney]

Its okay Ken, I think they are joking. It is sort of tongue and cheek. Anyone who has spent any time around Levinson gets it. But you are right, back to the topic...

I concur. Nothing bad intended with those posts Ken. No need to go running to the mods. I have a lot of respect for Mr. Levinson as well as my own teacher who is one of Mr. Levinson's former students. That said, I don't find any harm in something your teacher doing/saying being the source of a good chuckle every once in awhile, right?

Has anyone ever checked out the etudes by Annibale Mengoli? Quite challenging. From the intro inside...a letter from Mengoli to G.B..."Regarding the difficulty...about which I spoke to you before, you should not take my comments too badly, as I am the last player you should ask! They will never be played perfectly!" -Giovanni Bottesini.

 

[EFischer1]

Also in the Mengoli book (fingerings by Petracchi, btw), it says "Bottesini wrote to mengoli saying his studies were unplayable...the reperesent a peak in double bass literature, similar to the Paganini caprices".

I find/found them just as difficult as any of the concerti.

Also, I think that very few of us would even know the Mengoli book existed if not for Mr. Mensch. So I suppose we owe him a thanks for pulling it out of that legendary dresser of music.

 

[edvon]

MOZART, Overture to The Magic Flute, KV 620

Who here has played these with an Orchestra?>>

I have Ken, just a few hours ago, we did a "walk through the orchestra" for about 400 school kids 6-9 years old. (A good workout for my new Shen and my nerves as they were literally "walking" past, music stand wobbling and all....) At the rehearsal the conductor was asking us to work on it as to get the dynamics out, I thought to myself I want to get all the notes out first what a delightful piece, but not easy...

As for books, I had been using Simandl since day one, and it is not as bad and boring as many say, in my opinon anyway. I have been starting on the Zimmerman Bow Technique book, and "JAN KMENT Elementaretüden für KONTRABASS" which is a bit more musical than Simandl, not a method book as such but I think good for the beginning orchestral player like myself.

Ed

 

[Anon2962]

This is the program;
MOZART, Overture to Cos? fan tutte, KV 588
MOZART, Exultate jubilate, KV 165/158a
MOZART, Symphony No. 41 in C major, KV 551, Jupiter
MOZART, Overture to The Magic Flute, KV 620
MOZART, Mass in C major, KV 317, Coronation

This is a bizarrely similar programme to a concert i did last year - except we played 'Eine Klein Nachtmusic' intead of 41. The magic flute can be a bit of a roast, depending on the tempo and 'extremeness' of the dynamics wanted by the conductor. And 41 too, but they're pretty standard mozart excerpts. Looks like a fun concert.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

This is a bizarrely similar programme to a concert i did last year - except we played 'Enie Klein Nachtmusic' intead of 41. The magic flute can be a bit of a roast, depending on the tempo and 'extremeness' of the dynamics wanted by the conductor. And 41 too, but they're pretty standard mozart excerpts. Looks like a fun concert.

Our Conductor likes things as original as possible. We are playing the 'Flute at light speed. The 41 has much tougher spots but again, the fast movements are a lesson in Pivoting vs string jumping. In one of the pieces there are many tacited parts that are not indicated but penciled in. He want's to have only one solo Bass in those spots to help support the Cellos. I am the Solo guy in that case.

Although I started many moons ago as a Simandl guy, playing Cello parts makes you think twice. I play alot of Parts up to 2nd and 3rd position with a 1 1/2 step pivot rather than changing bows. It just flows better and sounds better as well.

I can see now how some of the older players out here almost bash Simandl but still, it's basic training in my eye. It works a good part of the time but not as much as one would think. I try now to make the music sound good and then learn the way my mind is picking the string and fingerings.

As a matter of fact, I have an old German Excerpt book by Schwabe-Starke and it has you using the 1 1/2 steps rather than changing strings in the 'Flute as they indicate the String you play on. This is also the Prague School that Simandl came from. Study and actual application is not necessarly the same.

 

[Anon2962]

...I play alot of Parts up to 2nd and 3rd position with a 1 1/2 step pivot rather than changing bows. ...

What do you mean by pivot? Change position? Or stay in the same position and stretch to a noteby rolling hte hand? And by changing bows to you mean changing the string you're bowing on....there's smoke coming out my ears.

 

[BGreaney]

On the topic of Simandl, I recently started working on the Gradus ad Parnassum etudes. I was suprised at how challenging they are.

 

[JimGullen]

Edouart Nanny: Complete Method for the 4 and 5 stringed double bass, pub: Alphonse Leduc, Paris, 1920.
Doesn't linger, nice tunes at times.

+1 This is also good for "no frills" string crossings.

+1, as well, for the Flesch book.

Since we're talking scales, I might as well add:

Jean-Marc Rollez, _Method de contrebasse_ books 2 and 3 (2 and 3 octaves, respectively). These books have nice sequential runs that help you "crawl" up the fingerboard.

Heinrich Schneikart, _Skalen und akkordstudien fur kontrabas__. "An ear training course using your bass". This book is arranged by Key signature, gives you straight scales (Major, harm. minor, melod. minor) for 3 octaves. What makes it different are the arpegio studies. The book has arpegios that no sane person would ever play!

Dale Anderson, _the doublebass book_. A pretty nice "one stop shop" for scales (straight, in thirds, in fourths, in fifths) and basic arpegios. Disclaimer: I play in a section with Dale but I have NO financial interest in his book.

A great companion for all five (six, really) of these books is Galamian and Newmann _Contemporary violin technique_ book 2. Book 2 is nothing but bowings and rhythm patterns for groups of notes. They can be applied to the "straight" 8th or 16th note etudes in the scale books. (BTW: Book 1 is just notation for pitches, no rhythms, pretty interesting!)

After that, my current favorite etude book is Libon, _12 studies for string bass_. This has etudes that provide for more musical ways to practice string crossings than the Nanny book. Again, use the Galamian rhythms with the pitches.

Thanks for starting this thread, Ken!

Best regards!

Jim

 

[kpo]

I have a question/problem with the Levinson "school of agility". The reason I bought is that it said something about "Techniques for producing a clean, clear low frequency sound."

All it is is scales and fingerings. I was deeply dissapointed. Did I miss something in that book?

 

[EFischer1]

While I don't own the book, I do practice a version the method every day.

The books purpose is not to teach scales and arpeggios. The book provides a routine that allows you to focus on something other than just learning an etude. Simandl, storch, bille, etc. are all great, but you have to remember that they are just etudes. The point is that you play the scales and spend time focusing on technique. This includes developing your sound, intonation, technique, string crossings, et all. In order for any etude to be successful you must be extremely critical of your own playing.

 

[Zedlee]

Thanks Ken for the valuable thread.

I took up double bass for 2 years ago because I love jazz and have been playing mostly pizz, jazz and pop tunes. I discovered though, that the bass has a gorgeous sound when bowed and now I want to learn everything I can about how to play this instrument properly. Due to my busy life, I can practice 1 good hour per day.

Can anyone recommend ONE book I should start with? I want something fairly easy and musical at the same time.

thank you.

 

[kpo]

The books purpose is not to teach scales and arpeggios. The book provides a routine ... ...just etudes. ...The point is that you play the scales and spend time focusing on technique.... etc, etc.

Of course.

But I got the book hoping to read about Levinson's "techniques for producing a clean, clear low frequency sound."...that's what is says ON the book, so I ordered it from the Juilliard bookstore...

Alas.

 

[JimGullen]

Can anyone recommend ONE book I should start with? I want something fairly easy and musical at the same time.

thank you.

If you're looking for one etude book, I'd recommend Sturm, _110 Studies for string bass_ (Zimmerman) vol. 1. You will encounter lots of different technique as you work through it. This book works nicely with with the Galamian rhythm book, too.

I'm assuming you worked through a method book like Simandl when you started studying. If you haven't had a few lessons about how to use a bow, you probably want to spring for some of those as well.

Best regards!
Jim

 

[EFischer1]

But I got the book hoping to read about Levinson's "techniques for producing a clean, clear low frequency sound."...that's what is says ON the book, so I ordered it from the Juilliard bookstore...

I see where you're coming from. Yeah, I suppose its meant more for his students so that he doesn't have to explain the method to all of them.

 

[Zedlee]

If you're looking for one etude book, I'd recommend Sturm, _110 Studies for string bass_ (Zimmerman) vol. 1. You will encounter lots of different technique as you work through it. This book works nicely with with the Galamian rhythm book, too.

I'm assuming you worked through a method book like Simandl when you started studying. If you haven't had a few lessons about how to use a bow, you probably want to spring for some of those as well.

Best regards!
Jim

I haven't worked through any method books...that's the reason for my post. Would you use the Simandl over the Sturm? thanks.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

What do you mean by pivot? Change position? Or stay in the same position and stretch to a noteby rolling hte hand? And by changing bows to you mean changing the string you're bowing on....there's smoke coming out my ears.

Oops.. I meant Changing Strings and moving the Bow across the adjacent string. Like on the A string CCCCCC D,C,B,C..GGetc in the M.Flute I will play the C starting with the 1st and the D with the 4th then coming down use the 2nd for the C and 1st for the B just rolling my hand back and forth without straining or stretching too much. I play with a loose thumb. The other way would be to play the open D and stay in 1st or hp for the B and C depending on where you are coming from or where you are going on the next notes.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I haven't worked through any method books...that's the reason for my post. Would you use the Simandl over the Sturm? thanks.

Simandl is a Method Book. Sturm is more of an Etude book applying what you would have learned already in Simandl. They are both rooted from the old Prague School going back to the late 18th century. One is more of a training book and the other closer to application. The Simandl has some great stuff as well if you have the patience to go cover to cover and do it correctly. When I practice just for stamina, I go thru several books and pick things that are fun and/or challenging. I play untill my hands need a break if I can get that far without interruption.

 

[JimGullen]

I haven't worked through any method books...that's the reason for my post. Would you use the Simandl over the Sturm? thanks.

Well, if the criteria is ONE book, yes, I'd start with Simandl.

Actually, I think the best advice would be to start with a teacher and ask them what book to get.

Starting off correctly will pay big dividends (both in terms of learning and enjoyment) later on!

Good Luck and enjoy!

Best regards!
Jim

 

[TomGale]

Here's a review of one from the Bass World;

Previously reviewed in 1997, Gale’s revised Technical Foundation Studies for the Double Bass, Volume 2 - Thumb Positions - is divided into four sections with a forward. On the inside cover, Mr. Gale has placed a diagram illustrating eleven variables in bow sound production. He states that: “The importance of the bow arm cannot be overemphasized.” In his forward he discusses the concept of the “Triangulation of Fingering Systems.” By this he means the development of three fingering systems including the closed
hand i.e., traditional span of a whole step, the open hand i.e., span of a minor or even a major third, and the thumb positions, both above and below the octave. The first section of the book is comprised of nine etudes. In these etudes he explores various combinations of the three fingering systems in an organized manner based on the span of the interval from the thumb to the third finger in thumb position; a minor third, a major third, or a perfect fourth. Well-crafted and somewhat challenging, each etude carefully and thoroughly explores the variety of fingering possibilities outlined in the forward.

The second section of the book discusses six selected left hand fingerings in some depth and provides a variety of musical examples to illustrate each point. Gale describes two closed hand fingerings concepts. The first of these is described as even-numbered consecutively fingered notes, such as phrases comprised of 2, 4, or 6 stepwise pitches. The second is odd-numbered consecutively fingered notes, such as phrases with 3 or 5 stepwise pitches. He then investigates combinations of open and closed hand positions when encountering odd-numbered consecutively fingered notes.
The possible use of thumb positions in conjunction with the aforementioned positions is investigated, as is the appropriate use of only the first and second fingers in thumb position for lyrical passages. He offers several exercises for the development of making a transition between closed and open hand positions and finally discusses musical exceptions to several of the previous concepts in chromatic passages. The third section of the book is devoted to a brief investigation of rapid arpeggio fingerings. And the final portion of the book is devoted to an appendix of musical examples taken from orchestral and solo repertoire to illustrate thumb, open, and closed hand applications.

As fingering choices are inevitably musical decisions, they remain a very personal choice. A player must be well informed to confront these musical creative solutions are not always born out of
logic. Gale has made a bold effort at codifying the universe of fingering choices and then searching for principles of application. And yet, as he acknowledges in the second section of the Technical Foundation Studies, “determining bass fingerings is not a science.” However, when one has a highly evolved perspective on the variety of fingerings available, then one becomes a well-informed performer. Gale’s methods are thoughtful guides that have the capacity to assist bassists in developing just such a highly
evolved perspective. – Review by Hans Sturm

 

[Anon2962]

Emmm