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Double Bass Orchestral Technique & Method Studies Thread

#41
I just recieved a set of 5 Books from Tom Gale. Fast service as well after ordering them. I can see right off the bat from one of the easier books that his approach is similar but different than Simandl. Glancing thru a few of his other books I see how personally he explains everything. This man has a passion for teaching so be patient with his self promoting posts. He is long past due here to be acknowledged by the TB Bass community.

The First Book I am going thru is "Practical Studies for Double Bass". Thes is marked 'Second Edition 2001' so I guess it has some additional text from the first attempt. These books by the way are from 'American School or Double Bass'. I wonder what additional information we could learn from Dr. Morton for that school whom I understand was Tom's student. Tom?, Please correct me if I post any errors of information.

Last night at rehearsal the Conductor came to point out one of the difficult parts in Mozarts 41st, Jupiter. As he pointed it out he said that a freind in the NY Phil said it's difficult to play unless you play it a certain way. I played it for him with no trouble at all and looked at his puzzled face. Then I said, "I'm from NY and was trained by members of the NY Phil". "For me, it's just a matter of hitting the right notes. Technique is not a problem". He walked away as if defeated. Actually, I use some of the technique that Tom teaches. Play the notes with the fingering that works. String crossings and 1-2-4 halp step fingerings do not always work as taught in Simandl. One must look 'outside the shell' of Simandl and get creative when playing Cello music! Yes, the Bass parts of Mozart and Beethovan is often the Cello part but we are now after centuries playing it on an instrument much bigger with thicker strings, longer string spacing and tuned in 4ths. The only way to play some parts easily is to improvise with fingerings and bow changes across strings.

I will go thru Toms books as a personal study and report back as I find things of interest to share. Even though I started playing Bass in 1964, I still find it valuable to try other methods even if it's book one, page one!
 
#42
I wonder what additional information we could learn from Dr. Morton for that school whom I understand was Tom's student. Tom?, Please correct me if I post any errors of information.

No, Mark was never my student. My expertise was teaching and his is being a fine soloist - amazing playing! We found we sort of complimented each other and it came together in the form of the American School of DB, which we started.
If you go to asodb.com and click on 'books', you will find about 10 books with short descriptions of each. Mark's books are in manuscript but very easy to read.
PS - Mark's "Torturous Exercises" are not really torturous - sort of tounge in cheek.
Tom Gale
 
#47
Hello everyone, I have a question and I'm not sure if it goes here...

What's a good book to go along with Simandl? No where around me stocks Double Bass method books that I know of except for the library, and all they have is Simandl I and II. I wass thinking about getting the Bottesini Method for the Double Bass Part One is this a good book to go along with Simandl?

Sorry if this doesn't go here!

Thank you
 
#48
John453 said:
Hello everyone, I have a question and I'm not sure if it goes here...

What's a good book to go along with Simandl? No where around me stocks Double Bass method books that I know of except for the library, and all they have is Simandl I and II. I wass thinking about getting the Bottesini Method for the Double Bass Part One is this a good book to go along with Simandl?

Sorry if this doesn't go here!

Thank you
Click to expand...

I think that's a good choice as well as the Bille method to hear something different melodically. Also, if you are training for Orchestra get the Zimmerman Excerpt books. I think there are 6 in the set and also Oscar Zimmerman put out complete Beethovan and Mozart parts from what I have heard. Those I dont' have but I have 5 of 6 of the Excerpt books (missing #5).

Read above of the other books I have listed. Can't have too many as long as you are serious when you practice.
 
#49
KSB - Ken Smith said:
I think there are 6 in the set and also Oscar Zimmerman put out complete Beethovan and Mozart parts from what I have heard. Those I dont' have but I have 5 of 6 of the Excerpt books (missing #5).
Click to expand...

Yea, there is a slew of those books. Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Overtures, Bach...there's a lot of them basically. I find them a little more practical for my taste because it gives the excerpts in context rather than just separating them by a double bar. However, you do get a lot more useful material w/ the Fred Zimmermann books as far as # of excerpts...

That said, I agree w/ the Bille. You could also check out the Simandl 30 etudes as a supplement to the method book. The gradus ad parnassum book has some really challenging stuff in it too.
 
#50
I always used the Sturm etude books. Not the most exciting of exercise books but they have great etudes and increase in difficulty as you go through out the book. I think they work great with Simandl because like Simandl, it works on both the left hand and the right hand at the same time.

I never used any lower level Bille books. I only used to advanced books to go along with Book 2 of Simandl, but I'm sure they will be fine as well.
 
#51
I'm not so sure about the Oscar Zimmerman books, personally. But, lets face it, they're old...really old. So unless your teacher plays in a major symphony and is willing to correct all of the bowings that are out of date, they seem to be misleading.

For example, all of those slurs in the first movement of Mozart 35. Most orchestras just don't play it like that anymore.
 
#52
I think having something at least to learn the notes and possible fingerings is way better than nothing. When I see the schedule posted on line for the entire season between the two orchestras I play in, the first thing I do is look and see if I have the Excerpt. We just did Mozarts 41st and Majic Flute with a few others and having those two was a great help. The Excerpts are different than the entire piece but it was great at the first rehearsal playing as if i've played it before. If you have, then it's just brushing up but if not, all the 'ammo' you can get is best in my book.

Bowings can be worked out at or before the first rehearsal but having months to work on the notes is priceless.
 
#53
KSB - Ken Smith said:
I think that's a good choice as well as the Bille method to hear something different melodically. Also, if you are training for Orchestra get the Zimmerman Excerpt books. I think there are 6 in the set and also Oscar Zimmerman put out complete Beethovan and Mozart parts from what I have heard. Those I dont' have but I have 5 of 6 of the Excerpt books (missing #5).

Read above of the other books I have listed. Can't have too many as long as you are serious when you practice.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the reccomendation on the Bille Method :) Would the first volume suffice, or would it be ebetter to go on and get the second? If it helps I'm on page 69 (bowing variations) of Book 1 of Simandl. Does the first Bille book go past the the G harmonic?

I've got the Zimmermann Orchestral Excerpts (all except #1) from the library before. I never really tried anything in them:hmm:

Thanks again Ken and everyone else you've been a great help! :)
 
#54
John453 said:
Thank you for the reccomendation on the Bille Method :) Would the first volume suffice, or would it be ebetter to go on and get the second? If it helps I'm on page 69 (bowing variations) of Book 1 of Simandl. Does the first Bille book go past the the G harmonic?

I've got the Zimmermann Orchestral Excerpts (all except #1) from the library before. I never really tried anything in them:hmm:

Thanks again Ken and everyone else you've been a great help! :)
Click to expand...

I have about the entire set of Bille. Regardless of your level, I suggest you get Book I if for any other reason than to understand his approach. Warning: Bille uses the 1-3-4 Italian fingering method. For starters, read thru using 1-2-4 using the 2 instead of 3 unless it's in TP. Then, try the 1-3-4 fingering to strengthen your 3rd finger. I use the 3rd now quite often with a pivot to get 1 1/2 steps in a position when I so desire like for instance on the G-string, C-D-Eb using 1 - shift 2-4 as in Simandl or 1-pivot slightly 3-4. I have seen many Players using this including the Philly Principal and his students.

For Beginners or younger students a new Book came out just last year (August, 2005) called 'My First Simandl' .. Invalid Link Removed

This guy played in the Dallas Symphony and is not an un-known by any means. This book as described is a good way to get younger players into Simandl on the gradient approach from what I have read. I called a local store yesterday that sells Carl Fischer books and ordered one for my collection and review.
 
#55
I find that the fingerings are also extremely outdated in the Zimmerman books. I just feel that if there are better resources available (i.e. the "Real Get A Job Book"), they should be exploited. Naturally, learning the exerpts before beginning rehearsal on a piece is vital.

Just because the use of the Zimmerman books is "traditional", or convenient, or whatever, does not mean that we shouldn't seek more updated sources.
 
#56
KSB - Ken Smith said:
I have about the entire set of Bille. Regardless of your level, I suggest you get Book I if for any other reason than to understand his approach. Warning: Bille uses the 1-3-4 Italian fingering method. For starters, read thru using 1-2-4 using the 2 instead of 3 unless it's in TP. Then, try the 1-3-4 fingering to strengthen your 3rd finger. I use the 3rd now quite often with a pivot to get 1 1/2 steps in a position when I so desire like for instance on the G-string, C-D-Eb using 1 - shift 2-4 as in Simandl or 1-pivot slightly 3-4. I have seen many Players using this including the Philly Principal and his students.

For Beginners or younger students a new Book came out just last year (August, 2005) called 'My First Simandl' .. Invalid Link Removed

This guy played in the Dallas Symphony and is not an un-known by any means. This book as described is a good way to get younger players into Simandl on the gradient approach from what I have read. I called a local store yesterday that sells Carl Fischer books and ordered one for my collection and review.
Click to expand...
I didn't know there was another fingering rather than Simandl and open hand fingerings...

Thanks again you've been great help :)
 
#57
neilG said:
I found two editions of the Mengoli; one edited by Thomas Martin and one by Petracchi. The Yorke Editon (Petracchi) is almost $50 and the other is 12. Anybody seen both to compare what the difference is besides fancy paper? Thanks.
Click to expand...

So, I ordered both editions through the school library and compared the two. The Martin edition is almost entirely without fingerings, and some bowings have been changed or eliminated when compared with the Petracchi version. This is assuming that Petracchi's assertion that his edition is faithful to the original is true. Almost every note has a fingering. I think that Petracchi's bowings, where different, are better and fit the style more closely.
Petracchi's fingerings may be useful to some, if you ignore the 3rd finger instead of 2nd Italian thing. His fingerings will also give some interesting insight into musical expression, as in playing a melody on one string vs. crossing strings.

All in all, I'd get the Petracchi edition. To see how he plays the etudes will give you ideas on how to make them your own. And as we all know, borrowing ideas is so much more efficient than coming up with your own.
 
#58
EFischer1 said:
I find that the fingerings are also extremely outdated in the Zimmerman books. I just feel that if there are better resources available (i.e. the "Real Get A Job Book"), they should be exploited. Naturally, learning the exerpts before beginning rehearsal on a piece is vital.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the Real Get A Job Book is no longer in print. If you have a friend that has it, I would definitely copy it. That said, does anyone know why it's not in print anymore?
 
#59
EFischer1 said:
I find that the fingerings are also extremely outdated in the Zimmerman books. Just because the use of the Zimmerman books is "traditional", or convenient, or whatever, does not mean that we shouldn't seek more updated sources.
Click to expand...

Exactly. All the Zimm. books and those of that era were written with the old bass setup in mind - thick gut strings, high action, etc. Today, we have many and better choices in techniques to help reach that musical goal.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com
 

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