Ordered a custom bass, 15 mo's later...still don't have it.

[MarkoYYZ]

I don't believe for a second that they really are on holiday. I believe (having read this far into this thread) that there is no bass and no intention of ever building one. That money is gone.

I doubt it's the "builder" that is on holiday in this case, but their "supplier". If that supplier is Asian, then they might be shut down completely for New Year holidays, and while it seems odd to us in the west that companies can just completely close down for anywhere from a week to a month, this is actually what goes on.

The Chinese actually get more legal holidays (or total days off) than we do in the west, and they often extend those holidays further into unpaid days off. Many extend the 1 week holiday into 2 week, but some companies are closing 3 to 4 weeks this year, since 2015 was a down year for a lot of them.
.

 

[Bob_Ross]

There is no reason in my opinion why any bass should take 15 months.

Well, it probably doesn't take 15 months to build a bass. Perhaps it only takes one week. But if there are 60 other people already in the queue when you place your order, it's going to take at least 15 months before you receive your bass.

 

[Buszkock]

I doubt it's the "builder" that is on holiday in this case, but their "supplier". If that supplier is Asian, then they might be shut down completely for New Year holidays, and while it seems odd to us in the west that companies can just completely close down for anywhere from a week to a month, this is actually what goes on.

The Chinese actually get more legal holidays (or total days off) than we do in the west, and they often extend those holidays further into unpaid days off. Many extend the 1 week holiday into 2 week, but some companies are closing 3 to 4 weeks this year, since 2015 was a down year for a lot of them.
.

cheaper to close in the winter months too, saves on heating costs besides all the electric and water bills.

 

[Robus]

That's a lot of money to spend for a Chinese bass, even if it is made to your specifications. The tool marks on the fretboard in those pictures tell me everything I need to know. For that money, I'll bet you would get a superior instrument if you bought an off-the-shelf Fender Deluxe. To make matters worse, something is messed up in the supply chain. The people you're dealing with probably have no idea themselves where your bass is, or when it will arrive. This has disaster written all over it. Seek your money back. Accept no more promises or assurances. An endless string of promises and assurances is the common theme in all the stories of this kind that I have read on the forum.

 

[shal1234]

Do you know the name of the guy building your bass?

Well they are built in a factory in China, then shipped to the US for finishing, allegedly. My point of contact at the company is the front man, and he (allegedly) travels to the factory sometimes. That's all I know.

 

[shal1234]

No not a builders rating system.
Interesting idea but that's not what I meant. Too much risk.

What I meant was a lesson on what to be aware of and how to engage.

Example:

1. Paying up front:
   1. what % is reasonable.
   2. should you expect any of this upfront $ back if things go downhill.
2. Delays:
   1. when does it become a red flag,
   2. when does it become a deal killer
3. Specs:
   1. are they clear,
   2. did the builder change them on you
   3. how should you proceed if the builder is changing materials on you without asking permission first
4. Contract:
   1. is there one,
   2. who drafted it,
   3. are you trusting the builder on his word b/c he's famous and you should be lucky he acknowledges your existence
   4. An example of a sample contract that most of us think is sane and reasonable
   5. what to do if the builder refuses to agree to anything in writing

This is information that could be very useful to people who have little experience dealing with builders

Great ideas from everyone. In light of everything, I really hope that this contributes something positive to the bass community such as helping to protect the buyers, and builders alike.

Maybe in the contract it could state how many people are ahead of you, say like "There are 4 people ahead of you, with an average of 3 months per build".

I dont know, just a thought.

 

[Bigbri]

I appreciate your candor...that is the truth. This almost smacks of the overseas sources who supply to alibaba and the like. Here's the gag: TBer buys an alibaba Faux-derra, upgrades the hardware / elex, full fret job, etc. $700 later and he owns a POS Fodera copy. Halo (and others) buy into the concept on a grander scale and there ya go.

Yes, MTD, Dingwall, and a host of others outsource to overseas builders but the trick is to maintain some presence on-site in the interest of product quality. Read Sheldon Dingwall's account of jetting to China for that purpose.

BTW, Chinese New Year began Feb 8th and the majority of the manufacturing component shuts down for a month. My buddy, Zhue, told me that and he knows firsthand. Expect delays.

Riis

I was a little surprised when I heard China. Can you actually order a high quality bass from alibaba or places that make fakes? There is really no need for that. I can see why people want lp's or a Rick as there is alot of work going into it as compared to a bolt on. Why not buy high quality local stuff and make your own waterslide decals. Some years ago I walked into a local store, that also make their own incredible guitars and they had these necks hanging on the wall. Fretted and unlined fretless. I asked what they were, and he said 100 bux. I said no, who made them, he said they're just Canadian made. Super thick slab board of ebony got my attention. I just bought one for my walnut jb bass body I had them make and threw on some black grover tuners, schaller bridge, and emg's. 20yrs later it's still one of the nicest fretless basses I've owned. The neck reminds me alot of a musicman with that thick slab board and feel. I just figured out how to make my own waterslide decals with lots of help from a Tb'r (thanks again!). Instead of going to China, I'm looking to find old wood. My grandfather had some 75 yr old hickory and bird's eye maple in his garage. Find an old house being torn down and ask if you can take a bit of scrap. There's a guy in NY making guitars out of the wood from the old buildings they are tearing down. he must have a warehouse full of 100+ yr old wood probably for free. I'm wanting to find a super old door made out of the knottiest, raunchiest pine I can find. Cut out a nice slab p-bass body, and have one heck of an original player or even a conversation piece. You probably wouldn't have a pine body as a main bass, but why not? The guitars this guy in NY is making are alot of pine and they look and sound incredible. 2 yr waitlist, probably celeb only at this point. But there ya go....forget Alibaba.

Money back, no doubt. I've had customs made..No more than 6 months, quality flawless, communication great. No Way would i put up with what you are going through! I would have pulled the plug a while back. You've more patience than I! Good luck to you!

Nobody knows. Some guys in China, who go on vacation and are unreachable for 10 days at a time. I didn't like the sound of it, but even some of the higher end US builders have their Standard Series built overses and then finished in the US.

 

[Tim817]

Great ideas from everyone. In light of everything, I really hope that this contributes something positive to the bass community such as helping to protect the buyers, and builders alike.

Maybe in the contract it could state how many people are ahead of you, say like "There are 4 people ahead of you, with an average of 3 months per build".

I dont know, just a thought.

I would like to know up front that I'm a year out before my bass is even started. sign contract 25%, start of work 25% or even 50% and 25% upon signing off the bass by customer.

 

[SonicBlueJoe]

Maybe in the contract it could state how many people are ahead of you, say like "There are 4 people ahead of you, with an average of 3 months per build".

I dont know, just a thought.

The lesson is to do your due diligence and ask questions, lots of questions, just like that one and many others that have been suggested in this thread.

However, putting all those answers into the most "ironclad" contract developed by the most expensive lawyers in all the land likely wouldn't change Mr. Halo's actions one iota. Companies that are struggling, poorly managed, etc, do this sort of thing all the time, and for much higher stakes than this, with contracts as thick as a small city's phonebook. I've personally had a client that pre-paid $800K on $2.3 million of equipment for a facility, only to have the company take the money, fritter it away trying to deliver on promises to others in line ahead of us, and then running into bankruptcy when the coffers ran dry and before delivering my client's equipment order. Now, we had a more than adequate contract, and pursued all our remedies aggressively at the first hint of BS, and guess where that got us? We're in line with other creditors in BK court, with no hope of ever squeezing any blood from that stone. Our lesson: no more pre-pay up front. Progress payments only when suitable proof of progress.

Fact is, you win a legal battle under the present situation just as easy as you would win if you had the most marvelous contract in all the world. The fact remains under either scenario, your legal remedies under the circumstances are poor, at best.

IMHO, there are only two contract terms that are paramount to negotiate when dealing with a custom builder, each of which can be suitably negotiated in an oral contract:

(1) The Deposit. For a custom build, never pay in full at the time of order. If the builder doesn't already require something less, then negotiate something less or go find another builder.

(2) The Method of Payment. Make sure they take AMEX or PayPal, and use the one that will protect you the longest, and let those folks fight your battle. Make sure you know the window in which they will agree to do so. At the first hint of something going astray, drop the hammer. Sorry if I missed it, but have you looked into whether or not you have any recourse through the company you used to pay them? The chances are probably not great given the elapsed time, but I sure as heck would have run that to ground if you haven't.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

I read this whole thread. I also recently went to the halo site to price out a build out of curiosity. I kept it pretty simple with a lot of stock stuff and it still was over $1500. If I added stuff I really would want it was well over 2K and I think that is ridiculous for one of these. I could do better at Warmouth. Hell, people use the brain God gave you. Then go to the classifieds right here on this site and with a little patience you can buy a top of the line build by some of the best builders in the world for under $2500. Some of the deals I've seen on here are amazing. Take your pick, Sadowsky, MTD/Tobias, Pedulla, Vallenti, Clement, Lull, Stambaugh, Sandberg, Warrior, Benneventi, even Fodera, just about every big name in bass building come through here. Know what you want, have the money in hand and be ready to pull the trigger. I would never in a million years buy in the same fashion as done in this and many other threads. It is a recipe for disaster. I have had a few basses custom made and never had an experience like this, ever. Lucky, maybe, cautious, yes. And there are respected and talented luthiers in every metropolitan area that are just dying to build you your dream rig. I know I live here in Oregon, which surprisingly has a number of world class builders within a few hours drive of me.

Good luck folks, be well.

 

[bolophonic]

The thing that strikes me as questionable on this end is the purported rationale for requiring a fully custom build in the first place. Every single 24 fret bass on the market has a thin neck, therefore they have a weak sound, ergo they require active electronics? Pardon my bluntness, but this doesn't sound like the OP knows enough about basses to make an informed decision about what's really out there. Good luck getting a refund.

 

[RickyT]

Boy oh boy------you sound exactly like the many victims of Darrin Huff. And falling for it just as meekly. Oh well, be sure to let us all see this bass in April. Uhh....good luck....

You mustn't have read my post properly. Natural disaster. Shop closed for a month. This put him back 3 months having to build necks again, going through insurance claims, getting the shop fit out again. Then trying to source timbers again takes time.

I go to the shop every 4-6 weeks and check things out and regularly see photos of my build and the others. He has 3 basses on the bench to try and catch up.

Considering I've never mentioned the luthiers name or even where he lives I think it's pretty poopy for you to assume he's ripping people off. Order a CT bass and see if you have it within 24 months.

Quality over speed

 

[shal1234]

The thing that strikes me as questionable on this end is the purported rationale for requiring a fully custom build in the first place. Every single 24 fret bass on the market has a thin neck, therefore they have a weak sound, ergo they require active electronics? Pardon my bluntness, but this doesn't sound like the OP knows enough about basses to make an informed decision about what's really out there. Good luck getting a refund.

I shouldnt have made a sweeping statement like that. But on the contrary, I've diligently analyzed all the commercial basses in every available guitar store I find. Hours and hours playing EVERY MODEL I can get my hands on. Sure there are a few 24 fetters with thicker necks. I tried those. They were not up to snuff. Take the prs GG for example, fine instrument. Beautiful sounding mid to upper register. Unfortunately I found the low end to be inferior. I don't play the bass like a normal bass player, I play it with both hands on the fretboard like a piano, and im not talking about two hand tapping. Trust me, I've searched and searched.

 

[shal1234]

UPDATE
So it looks like im in the sh!tter.

From the company:

Hi xxxxxx

I'm sorry that we made more than one mistake on the build and that I wasn't better at keeping you informed.

Our commitment is to deliver 100% spec accuracy and the best possible quality, even if that requires additional time.
Our policies reflect those commitments. We do not guarantee a delivery date nor do we accept cancellations or returns for refunds.
We were transparent about this from the very beginning and you agreed to it at that time.

I want to make the situation better for you and resolve things amicably.
I am a bit uncomfortable with refunding and sending the bass.

You paid $xxxxx for this bass. What is a heavily discounted price for you?
Please let me know...

So the price he quoted doesn't match my records....and so it begins

 

[GKon]

I shouldnt have made a sweeping statement like that. But on the contrary, I've diligently analyzed all the commercial basses in every available guitar store I find. Hours and hours playing EVERY MODEL I can get my hands on. Sure there are a few 24 fetters with thicker necks. I tried those. They were not up to snuff. Take the prs GG for example, fine instrument. Beautiful sounding mid to upper register. Unfortunately I found the low end to be inferior. I don't play the bass like a normal bass player, I play it with both hands on the fretboard like a piano, and im not talking about two hand tapping. Trust me, I've searched and searched.

I really don't think there's any need for you to feel like you have to validate why you decided to shop at this particular luthier for the type of bass you wanted.

 

[GKon]

UPDATE
So it looks like im in the sh!tter.

From the company:

Hi xxxxxx

I'm sorry that we made more than one mistake on the build and that I wasn't better at keeping you informed.

Our commitment is to deliver 100% spec accuracy and the best possible quality, even if that requires additional time.
Our policies reflect those commitments. We do not guarantee a delivery date nor do we accept cancellations or returns for refunds.
We were transparent about this from the very beginning and you agreed to it at that time.

I want to make the situation better for you and resolve things amicably.
I am a bit uncomfortable with refunding and sending the bass.

You paid $xxxxx for this bass. What is a heavily discounted price for you?
Please let me know...

So the price he quoted doesn't match my records....and so it begins

I'm assuming you have records of the original quoted price?

 

[shal1234]

I'm assuming you have records of the original quoted price?

I do, in paypal. I asked him to show me records of his lower price. We removed some options after the start, but I can't find the refund. Could be that Im just not looking at the right dates. I'll keep yall updated on the status of this, unlike the builder...

 

[GKon]

I do, in paypal. I asked him to show me records of his lower price. We removed some options after the start, but I can't find the refund. Could be that Im just not looking at the right dates. I'll keep yall updated on the status of this, unlike the builder...

I hope you find the records.
I know you've been through a lot and would want a full refund.
You may want to push for that still but given their quotes policy it may make it a fight.
At the very least, it does sound like he's willing to work with you on a discount. If you end up doing that make it clear that you also insist on updates and pics as it progresses.

Good luck!

 

[Robus]

UPDATE
So it looks like im in the sh!tter.

From the company:

Hi xxxxxx

I'm sorry that we made more than one mistake on the build and that I wasn't better at keeping you informed.

Our commitment is to deliver 100% spec accuracy and the best possible quality, even if that requires additional time.
Our policies reflect those commitments. We do not guarantee a delivery date nor do we accept cancellations or returns for refunds.
We were transparent about this from the very beginning and you agreed to it at that time.

I want to make the situation better for you and resolve things amicably.
I am a bit uncomfortable with refunding and sending the bass.

You paid $xxxxx for this bass. What is a heavily discounted price for you?
Please let me know...

So the price he quoted doesn't match my records....and so it begins

I wonder if he is yet aware of this thread?

 

[SonicBlueJoe]

UPDATE
So it looks like im in the sh!tter.

From the company:[

Even tho I knew you were in the sh!tter when I read your OP, I still feel for you. Even tho I witness this sort of financial depravity all too often, it always burns me to hear about it.

I wonder if he is yet aware of this thread?

Of course he is, why do you think the OP is getting emails.

You've gotten alot of "I'd be demanding a refund" and "Lawyer up" advice in this thread. I hope you can see the futility of such folly. You have no leverage, and Mr. Halo has made his intentions abundantly clear. As putrid as it may sound, at this point, were I you, I'd be making nice nice with Mr. Halo. I'd stop talking refund and deep discounts, because obviously that ain't happening, and you have no means to make it happen. Everything about your experience suggests Mr. Halo is operating on the fringe, at best, and headed in the wrong direction. I'd lock this thread, or delete it if I could. And I'd be doing my best to entice him to deliver me something, anything, before the ship totally sinks. Even if it's a POS, you'll at least be able to get some of your money back.