Orion .. why do people say its so hard?

[Jubey Monster]

Woah woops, didn't realise there were another 2 pages to this thread... makes my comment rather out dated

 

[Chowderboots]

Haha I thought this would be about the bassist/gutiarist of Behemoth/Vesania fame...silly me.

 

[Thunder_Fingers]

There is no reason to say this, but I got a little shocked here a few weeks ago, Hadn't heard the song for years, and when it got to that "solo part" I very easily recognized the muff'ed bass, It have a completely different attack in the sound than the guitar, wich made it pretty easy for me to part it out as not being a guitar.

(Yes, that is the same part that all these years have sparked so much controversary "Is that a bass, Is that a guitar?!")

 

[fetfet]

At 6:35 it's bass?

wow! that never occured to me.

 

[JustFunk]

I see a lot of people saying that Orion is a very hard song to play.... I actually find it quite easy... takes a while to learn tho.

Also, how do you play it? Pick, thumb, fingers? I find that using my thumb gives a nice warm sound that sounds more like the recording itself, altho using a light touch with the fingers over the neck is just as good.

Actually I believe it is hard, and rock related, one of the hardest songs you would encounter in playing bass.

Just to contextualize, I am not a pro and can’t consider myself a strong bassist on any aspect. I am just good enough to play Muse, Jamiroquai, Vulfpeck, RHCP, High Fade, and many other stuff, but not crazy Miller-Wooten slap, Myung tapping or Pastorius craziest stuff.

I consider Orion to be hard. Why?

First of all, because I know what the bassist should play. Here I refer to the precise notes of the 3 bass tracks, and related sound/effects programming. But let’s elaborate abit further:

1) The rhythmics are not easy at all. The chorus, for example requires very fast 16ths to be played by muting the strings when needed. The bassist who plays them continually, can tell that’s not a hard part. The bassist who actually plays them well and get the Cliff rhythmics and sound, will tell you that it’s hard and only for definitely experienced, not only definitely fast, bassists.

2) The solo: I read many times “I can play Orion easily except for the solo”. Then they are not playing Orion. The solo is a masterpiece Rob itself simplifies as Cliff did it with 3 separated tracks it seems.

First, you need a 24 frets bass. Otherwise, things get more complicated.

Second, you need to be able to bend 1 and a half tone (bass setup, strings gauge/tension, fingers etc), otherwise, things get more complicated.

Third, you’ll play with your fingers (right hand) and left hand, 32ths at 130 bpm. If you simplify them in 16ths or jumping notes, then yes Orion is not hard.

Fourth: you need a good sound and expression in your fingers. Orion is not accomplished by being played technically standard. It is expressive (especially the solo), so that in order to play it well, all has to be mastered. And this is hard to reach.

Fifth, if you are brave enough, you can try to double your bass with a good multieffects programming (you may need to use different “basses” natural + virtual, and related patches, some of which have to be pitched down in different ways with respect to the main bass, and change patches during the solo. This is where I am working, still don’t know what the result will be).

3) The memory: Cliff’s many parts, and Orion is no exception, have little but frequent variations, at times only rhythmically or so, and differently from songs which are shorter or follow melodic themes which then repeat themselves, this requires memory.

Generally speaking, Orion is providing me with a lot of work when songs apparently considered more demanding, didn’t. This is so if you play Orion as intended (with the correct transcriptions on hands and the right sound and intention).

Difficulties are not only plain technically related. Difficulties may cover themselves under aspects that some may consider minor, or not to consider at all, other layers such as rhythmics, tones, intention, effects logistics.

As a result, how many youtube recordings exist with bassists playing Orion “nice overall” as Cliff did?

 

[12BitSlab]

Actually I believe it is hard, and rock related, one of the hardest songs you would encounter in playing bass.

Just to contextualize, I am not a pro and can’t consider myself a strong bassist on any aspect. I am just good enough to play Muse, Jamiroquai, Vulfpeck, RHCP, High Fade, and many other stuff, but not crazy Miller-Wooten slap, Myung tapping or Pastorius craziest stuff.

I consider Orion to be hard. Why?

First of all, because I know what the bassist should play. Here I refer to the precise notes of the 3 bass tracks, and related sound/effects programming. But let’s elaborate abit further:

1) The rhythmics are not easy at all. The chorus, for example requires very fast 16ths to be played by muting the strings when needed. The bassist who plays them continually, can tell that’s not a hard part. The bassist who actually plays them well and get the Cliff rhythmics and sound, will tell you that it’s hard and only for definitely experienced, not only definitely fast, bassists.

2) The solo: I read many times “I can play Orion easily except for the solo”. Then they are not playing Orion. The solo is a masterpiece Rob itself simplifies as Cliff did it with 3 separated tracks it seems.

First, you need a 24 frets bass. Otherwise, things get more complicated.

Second, you need to be able to bend 1 and a half tone (bass setup, strings gauge/tension, fingers etc), otherwise, things get more complicated.

Third, you’ll play with your fingers (right hand) and left hand, 32ths at 130 bpm. If you simplify them in 16ths or jumping notes, then yes Orion is not hard.

Fourth: you need a good sound and expression in your fingers. Orion is not accomplished by being played technically standard. It is expressive (especially the solo), so that in order to play it well, all has to be mastered. And this is hard to reach.

Fifth, if you are brave enough, you can try to double your bass with a good multieffects programming (you may need to use different “basses” natural + virtual, and related patches, some of which have to be pitched down in different ways with respect to the main bass, and change patches during the solo. This is where I am working, still don’t know what the result will be).

3) The memory: Cliff’s many parts, and Orion is no exception, have little but frequent variations, at times only rhythmically or so, and differently from songs which are shorter or follow melodic themes which then repeat themselves, this requires memory.

Generally speaking, Orion is providing me with a lot of work when songs apparently considered more demanding, didn’t. This is so if you play Orion as intended (with the correct transcriptions on hands and the right sound and intention).

Difficulties are not only plain technically related. Difficulties may cover themselves under aspects that some may consider minor, or not to consider at all, other layers such as rhythmics, tones, intention, effects logistics.

As a result, how many youtube recordings exist with bassists playing Orion “nice overall” as Cliff did?

I am unfamiliar with the song in question. If you say it is difficult to play, I’ll take your word for it.

I just wanted to point out that the person you are disagreeing with hasn’t been seen in 13 years and his original opinion was posted 18 years ago.

I wish you good luck in all of your endeavors.

 

[JustFunk]

I am unfamiliar with the song in question. If you say it is difficult to play, I’ll take your word for it.

I just wanted to point out that the person you are disagreeing with hasn’t been seen in 13 years and his original opinion was posted 18 years ago.

I wish you good luck in all of your endeavors.

Did I do/write something wrong? Resuming old threads maybe? (I do that often since I read/write based on topic, not date).

BTW didn’t intend to disagree (with the OP perhaps), just to add my perspective and I did it by answering to the first post

 

[hieronymous]

Worked on a few of the sections a couple of years ago:







I never bothered trying to do the entire thing - too hard lol

 

[JustFunk]

Worked on a few of the sections a couple of years ago:







I never bothered trying to do the entire thing - too hard lol

Yeah not easy as whole thing, but you were almost there!