Ornette Coleman fans?

[punchdrunk]

Precisely, albeit I stand by my original sentiment. In my mind I imagine an "attempt" at emulating European harmony to have givin rise to the roots of what is considered Jazz, hence the uneducated position. Not meant as derogatory.

 

[steubig]

well, i'd think about the word uneducated, because it sure sounds like it's derogatory in this usage.

it's not clear to me that the people who invented jazz were slavishly trying to copy the harmony of western european art music.

i personally feel your slant on this is a tad too eurocentric, but maybe that's me.

i suppose it's better to go back to talking about ornette.

 

[teleharmonium]

Precisely, albeit I stand by my original sentiment. In my mind I imagine an "attempt" at emulating European harmony to have givin rise to the roots of what is considered Jazz, hence the uneducated position. Not meant as derogatory.

Surely you can see the problem when someone makes statements about historical events based on what they themselves imagine.

Can you do me a favor and listen to this and let me know where the imperfect parts are ?

 

[BluesWalker]

@ Brother Mister- Yes in a sense I am asking that. I have the "Beginning Jazz Bass" book and it is wonderful and has lots of detailed info but there is nothing about odd time signatures in Jazz. Everything is 4/4 that I know of.

I might be describing this wrong but say instead of having 4 quarter notes over a chord you have 5 or 7 quarter notes? If that might even be just a different "tail" piece at the end of a section to change things up leading into another section of a song. Do you guys still try to maintain more chord tones over something like that verses more scale or chromatic tones?

@ Bob Ross- I would be very interested to see the writing process if any that Ornette Coleman goes through. I always imagined that he might pick out certain chords and then everyone improvises over them but do you think sometimes they just made random music up as they went along take by take?

@ SanDiego Harry- I understand. There are some works of from Coleman I don't care for as much but I do love Art Of The Improvisers, Sound Grammar, and Song X. There is a song on Sound Grammar called "Sleep Talking" that I can't get enough of. It's one of his mellower tunes.

I come from a more rock and heavy metal background so have some patience with me. I only started listening to jazz seriously 2 years ago. I do sincerely appreciate the advice and opinions of everyone.

I am a little late to the game, but in Brubeck's Time Out, 5/4 time, the main bass line is dotted quarter, dotted quarter, quarter, quarter note; each note is a chord tone.

In Jazz Waltzs, 3/4 time, I tend to use two chord and one chromatic/scale connecting note per bar.

 

[punchdrunk]

You're right, jazz was perfectly formed from note one, each practitioner an astute student of music as a whole, and each having been a graduate of various institutions of higher learning.....
Doubtful. Less doubtful is that the genre evolved from folks who were struggling to make sense of the influx of influence that they found themselves then surrounded with. A type of punk classical (as it were/if you will) with the innate information of generations of polyrhythm coursing through the practitioners DNA. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but the notion of a perfect school of music forming instantly is, to my knowledge, not a part of the history books.... If you know otherwise then please enlighten us all.
Didn't listen to that recording btw, heard all that stuff as a child. But kudos on the referencing.
Now, back to our man Ornette....

 

[steubig]

wasn't my point at all.

music as a whole (and jazz as a fraction of it) has been evolving since day zero, so spare me this.

for me, the problem is that in your original statement you have african americans making an "uneducated attempt" to mimic western european harmony.

i personally find that to be a misreading of what probably went on.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Actually, the best guide to all of this would be Jauqo III-X, since he worked with Ornette.
Personally, I had a hard time getting my head around Tales of Captain Black and some of Jamaaladeen's early stuff for a number of years. All of a sudden one day I was playing some of Ornette's Artist House recordings for a student and it sounded really "inside" to me. I had the same experience with Birds of Fire by the Mahavishnu Orchestra. At first it sounded like music from Mars, but after a few years it started sounding really safe as well. Go figure.

 

[punchdrunk]

So then, what do you expect to have actually went on? (Of course your ideas, just as mine, will be viewed as mere conjecture, neither one of us having been present at those late evening jam sessions of the era before the popularity of the style began to take hold). You seem to agree with my sentiment that the style was at one point primordial, but the word "uneducated" seemed to strike ire with you. So who were these Fathers of this beloved style? Elitist? Working class field hands?
Also just for the sake of clarity, I never said "African Americans" (that term actually will bear itself out to be an unpleasant one in years to come, I personally prefer plain ole' black), those were your words. I actually tend to imagine a cross cultural influence, but there I go "imagining" things again.

 

[punchdrunk]

Actually, the best guide to all of this would be Jauqo III-X, since he worked with Ornette.
Personally, I had a hard time getting my head around Tales of Captain Black and some of Jamaaladeen's early stuff for a number of years. All of a sudden one day I was playing some of Ornette's Artist House recordings for a student and it sounded really "inside" to me. I had the same experience with Birds of Fire by the Mahavishnu Orchestra. At first it sounded like music from Mars, but after a few years it started sounding really safe as well. Go figure.

That is a great example of "conditioning". Perfect example actually. Love it.

 

[Roy Vogt]

A lot of what originally happened in New Orleans was players like Buddy Bolden and Louis Armstrong taking Brass Band Music they were playing at funerals (that whole side of Jazz in New Orleans is fascinating with Burial Societies for African-American citizens, etc.) and playing around with the melodies. If you add to that the contributions of people like Ragtime Composer Scott Joplin's syncopations, W. C. Handy appropriating Blues and the like and you get this melting pot that created Jazz. On a Bass-related note, I remember reading the autobiography of Pops Foster, possibly the first recognized Jazz Bassist. If you can find it, it's a great read. Prior to Pops most of the bass was covered by tuba or sousaphone.
I support the notion that Jazz is the only true American Art Form, although musicians worldwide have taken the ball and run with it!
Although I think there are some woeful exclusions (downplaying Miles' Fusion experiments, etc.) the Ken Burn's documentary is a good guide for someone just getting their feet wet in Jazz.

 

[teleharmonium]

You're right, jazz was perfectly formed from note one, each practitioner an astute student of music as a whole, and each having been a graduate of various institutions of higher learning.....
Doubtful. Less doubtful is that the genre evolved from folks who were struggling to make sense of the influx of influence that they found themselves then surrounded with. A type of punk classical (as it were/if you will) with the innate information of generations of polyrhythm coursing through the practitioners DNA. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but the notion of a perfect school of music forming instantly is, to my knowledge, not a part of the history books.... If you know otherwise then please enlighten us all.
Didn't listen to that recording btw, heard all that stuff as a child. But kudos on the referencing.
Now, back to our man Ornette....

This is classic internet flakiness - I challenge your point, and you make up the extreme opposite of your point, and act as if that's what I was arguing. I said no such thing. You chose to make that statement about jazz; either you can back it up with specifics, or you can't.

Jazz is a folk form which is clearly closely related to other American folk forms and their multiple European and African antecedents. That does not make it an "attempt" or an "emulation". The music you are comparing jazz to has some of the same sources that jazz does; you are making a distinction without a difference.

 

[teleharmonium]

A lot of what originally happened in New Orleans was players like Buddy Bolden and Louis Armstrong taking Brass Band Music they were playing at funerals (that whole side of Jazz in New Orleans is fascinating with Burial Societies for African-American citizens, etc.) and playing around with the melodies. If you add to that the contributions of people like Ragtime Composer Scott Joplin's syncopations, W. C. Handy appropriating Blues and the like and you get this melting pot that created Jazz. On a Bass-related note, I remember reading the autobiography of Pops Foster, possibly the first recognized Jazz Bassist. If you can find it, it's a great read. Prior to Pops most of the bass was covered by tuba or sousaphone.
I support the notion that Jazz is the only true American Art Form, although musicians worldwide have taken the ball and run with it!
Although I think there are some woeful exclusions (downplaying Miles' Fusion experiments, etc.) the Ken Burn's documentary is a good guide for someone just getting their feet wet in Jazz.

None of those sources are wrong, but like the blues, it also draws from English and Irish folk and popular music (which themselves incorporate middle eastern influences), and jazz also has a lot of Eastern European, Jewish, and Gypsy influences. "From Shtetl to Swing" is a great source of info on some of that.

 

[chuck norriss]

What albums of Ornette did you check out?

shape of jazz
this is our music

 

[punchdrunk]

Jazz itself has become a mother genre....albeit the origin of organized music is literally all Greek to me. (See what I did there)
Alright guys, I never felt my point to have been challenged, but fair enough, I'll reconsider the use of the term "uneducated" in future speculation.. However, not having been presented with any real dissenting content/information, I stand by my original sentiment.... Now to get back on point,....
I will say that Ornette did get to me during the Dave Holland era. Good stuff, and, upon repeat listening, a great example of the afore mentioned concept of musical conditioning.

 

[punchdrunk]

+1 for Shape

 

[chuck norriss]

right

 

[Roy Vogt]

None of those sources are wrong, but like the blues, it also draws from English and Irish folk and popular music (which themselves incorporate middle eastern influences), and jazz also has a lot of Eastern European, Jewish, and Gypsy influences. "From Shtetl to Swing" is a great source of info on some of that.

Of course! It's fascinating how all this Music ended up in different places. Bill Monroe was very much influenced by Black Blues Guitarists as was Jimmy Rogers. There's a lot of borrowing back and forth. If you haven't done so, I'd check out "Throw Down Your Heart", the documentary that Bela Fleck produced tracing the banjo back to it's origins as an African instrument. Spanish and Mediterranean Countries were influenced by the Moorish Occupation (why Flamenco sounds vaguely Arabic).
A lot of times I'll have fun with my undergrad students by saying, "After Charlie Parker completed his Jazz Studies, he went to work in Kansas City as a saxophonist" totally deadpan! (Hint: If you actually think I'm telling the truth here, please read Bird Lives!).
All of us in Music Academia spend a great deal of time going around after someone has created Art and explaining what they did. It's just that way.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Ornettes music is not out at all, what throws most people off and having them think it's off is Ornettes harmonic approach to creating the music.

And Steubig wiki piece on Harmolodics is pretty much not accurate.


It's written by some one who is acedemeclly trained trying to break down a concept that they pretty much know nothing about.

And no the above comment it not geared at Steubig at all( a musician who's work I dig and own)

 

[steubig]

Ornettes music is not out at all, what throws most people off and having them think it's off is Ornettes harmonic approach to creating the music.

And Steubig wiki piece on Harmolodics is pretty much not accurate.


It's written by some one who is acedemeclly trained trying to break down a concept that they pretty much know nothing about.

And no the above comment it not geared at Steubig at all( a musician who's work I dig and own)

agreed, not really out to me.

re the wiki: i'm not up enough on his system to know. i just wanted to point to the right word.

no offense and thanks.

 

[thirteendevils]

This is one of the most refreshing, intelligent, informative and interesting threads i have read on Talkbass for a long time