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Ornette Coleman fans?

#21
Sonny Rollins - Our Man In Jazz, that is pretty Ornette inspired. As you said though, 'What I saw' and that is exactly it. You saw one thing where as other people saw something else. What is it that makes you opinion the correct one? Nothing. What makes theirs the right one? Nothing. You can't call a guy a lair for that. Listen to Ornettes first two albums where he is in more a straight ahead and really listen to it. He can play changes when he wants to but his sidemen don't show a willingness to follow where his ideas want to go. Which leads me onto my next part trying to answer the question originally set by the OP about walking lines.

I try to avoid formulas when it comes to walking bass lines. I'll use them to help beginners get the concept behind a walking bass line but I've never had a student be content with how they sound, they all eventually come back and say they sound really dull and nothing like any of the great jazz bassists. You are better going and transcribing players you like and seeing how they do it, you will find that there are a hundred ways to state a chord change. You just have to find the ways that allow you to do it in the way that you are hearing it as well as leaving the band in no doubt where you are. When it comes to odd time signatures I rarely ever play a straight up walking line. Go and listen to Dave Holland and Larry Grenadier play in odd times and you find they rarely really play a straight walking line for an entire tune. They will maybe have a few sections or bars where they walk but I personally feel when a tune is an odd time it isn't really ever written with the idea of a walking bass underneath it. Even then, if you are playing a walking line you play it the same way you would any other line. Play the changes and listen to what is going on and react to that. That is about as straight forward as I can make.
 
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#23
SanDiegoHarry said:
I tried. I really tried. I listened and listened. I still think that Mr. Coleman was fooling folks, like Miles suggested years ago. Anharmonic Jazz? Heck, I play that *now* - it's call playing BADLY.
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Yeah... he was fooling folks just like Pablo Picasso. Can you believe how badly that guy painted? He thought both eyes should be on the same side of the head. What an idiot.
 
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#24
SanDiegoHarry said:
Your point?
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It's not rocket science, Sparky. You said "And yet Sonny doesn't play in that style, does he?" So I posted a link to a record where he does just that. BrotherMister referenced another. If you need more input, check out the recordings of Sonny in Europe with Henry Grimes and Don Cherry.

You're more than welcome to have any opinion you'd like. But don't try to back it up by talking about stuff you don't seem to know anything about.
 
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#25
Now now...calm down children. Lol

What exactly is Anharmonic jazz?

I'm sure there are some songs of his you could appreciate SanDiegoHarry. Lonely Woman, Sleep Talking, The Veil?

Thank you Mr. Fuqua for the interesting stories and advice. Where can I find excerses to help me? The only jazz theory book I have is Beginning Jazz Bass by Dominik Hauser and it was a really helpful book. I need to get back into studying more actually.
 
#26
For that matter what precisely is jazz if not an uneducated attempt to play classical. It's a bastardized facsimile that had become a legitimate school itself. That being the case I'm not too sure I'd outright dismiss a guy like Ornette just because he couldn't play exacting bebop/jazz in its "classical" sense. For me I find it really nice to hear the struggle/imperfection in his playing. It's not a con, it's honesty on parade.
 
#27
All I'm going to say regarding Mr. Coleman opinionwise....

I come from a heavy metal background. I listened to nothing but extremely brutal and fast and heavy music for years and years and I finally feel like the music has stopped progressing. Maybe the drummers are playing faster still but all the bands coming out nowadays sound the same to me anymore and I only like the originators within the sub-genres.

My ears have since turned to other forms of music that are chaotic. I love the works of Miles Davis "Bitches Brew" and much of Ornettes music for how out there it is. It's nice to hear something different and not so formulaic in other genre's. Ornette's and his bandmates playing on later albums are very aggressive. I'm also really into Chick Corea's "The Vigil" album. I'm curious about some Sonny Rollins as well as Herbie Hancocks "Sextant" album. Listening to Ornette got me into other groups like Bill Evans Trio and Thelonious Monk.

Haden and Lafaro played with Ornette; even Pat Methany. They had to have seen something in him? I respect everyone's opinion I'm just stating my own. I'd love some other referrals to other chaotic and avant-garde jazz artists. Thank you!
 
#28
Ed Fuqua said:
It's not rocket science, Sparky. You said "And yet Sonny doesn't play in that style, does he?" So I posted a link to a record where he does just that. BrotherMister referenced another. If you need more input, check out the recordings of Sonny in Europe with Henry Grimes and Don Cherry.

You're more than welcome to have any opinion you'd like. But don't try to back it up by talking about stuff you don't seem to know anything about.
Click to expand...

Okay, chief. You clearly are much more knowledgeable about what is good than I.
But OC still is noise. Period. The king, my friend, has no clothes.
 
#30
SanDiegoHarry said:
I tried. I really tried. I listened and listened. I still think that Mr. Coleman was fooling folks, like Miles suggested years ago. Anharmonic Jazz? Heck, I play that *now* - it's call playing BADLY.
Click to expand...

Miles also apologized to Ornette 40 years later about the comment he made about Ornette must be messed up in the head to play music like that.
 
#31
Some of the sections in the songs from the Song X album actually have written out bass lines and Ornette wrote some of the bass lines out for me one night.


Another thing that's interesting is one day Ornette and I were hanging out and he decided to play some Charlie Parker and it's was kool because it showed just how musically versatile Ornette is but he's dedicated to being who he is and who he knows he is and I have mad respect for any one who is true to being an individual.
 
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#34
SanDiegoHarry said:
Yes, let's compare Picasso to OC. That's apt.

Genius.
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Okay, how about Jackson Pollock? There were people who said that any chimpanzee could throw paint at a canvass and produce art like his. Yet the Museum of Modern Art in New York City has devoted an entire gallery to his work. Some people just don't get it.
It's okay and dandy if you just don't get Ornette's work but calling him a phony because you don't understand him is simply not cool.
 
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#38
I'd sit Harry down with a good stereo and recordings of Skys Of America and Science Fiction. That usually does it. I still don't get "Dancing In My Head" but Ornette is incandescent (like Pollack but he can draft like Picasso) Actually Ornette isn't that abstract, he still has objects and emotions (and primal blues) in his music. Lots of heart, not just the energy and infinite association.
 
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#39
BassBrass said:
I'd sit Harry down with a good stereo and recordings of Skys Of America and Science Fiction. That usually does it. I still don't get "Dancing In My Head" but Ornette is incandescent (like Pollack but he can draft like Picasso) Actually Ornette isn't that abstract, he still has objects and emotions (and primal blues) in his music. Lots of heart, not just the energy and infinite association.
Click to expand...

Very articulately stated. Thank you.
 
#40
SanDiegoHarry said:
Okay, chief. You clearly are much more knowledgeable about what is good than I.
But OC still is noise. Period. The king, my friend, has no clothes.
Click to expand...

No offense but from your posts it seems like you're either new to jazz or aren't really active within the genre. OC is not for "beginners" or listeners accustomed to very straight ahead jazz harmony. It's like anything else... take food for example. To you or me something like Taco Bell might be just fine. But for other people who are really into food they barely recognize it as something edible. They'd want something more exotic or esoteric. Something they haven't experienced before. Something that they've acquired a taste for over time. Think of OC in the same way.

It's fine if you don't have the experience to "get it" but don't say stuff like "OC is a liar" without being able to back it up. You're very very wrong in that regard as the other posters have already shown.
 
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