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Outdoor gig minimum

#42
I love reading these threads. You guys must play in the loudest bands on earth! I've done outdoor shows w/ my minimark (that's w/ a drummer and no PA support) granted acoustic guitar only. But I've also done plenty w/ 2 elec guitars etc w/ my 212 and LMII and I'm not even close to pushing it.

really makes me wonder - it's the same thing when I walk into a rehearsal space (in NYC the rooms are generally tiny) and the DB750/8x10 is on like 9. Really? I would think even standing in front of that would induce a seizure, let alone serious hearing damage . . . maybe it's me :D
 
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#43
Outdoors and no PA ???

1. If possible, avoid it
2. If there's now way out bring as much as possible moving speaker cone area with you and place them everywhere on stage. The more speaker cone area you have the less power you'll need and your sound will be better.
3. You have access to horn loaded bass speakers ? Use them ! They have a better speaker-to-air coupling and will carry the lows better over distance.
 
#44
Well, years ago I used to use two peavey 115 cabs and a Mark IV head at 310w for outdoors. Too much to transport for me now. I'm not used to these new little rigs for outdoors yet. Played an outdoor gig last Sunday at a marina with the Markbass 121H combo with no PA support. It did ok, but that was not a concert stage. Seems like two 12" cabs woulda filled that gig out nicely. I gotta admit most of my gigs are not big big. When they are, there's PA.

I understand that outdoors, loud, and on a big stage with no PA support would require some serious watts and cabbage. But, I believe I'll have PA when that happens. Too bad I didn't buy a LMII head separately so I could mix and match cabs.

As for teaming an 8 ohm 410 with my single 12" in my combo, I've heard bad things about mixing sizes like that. Each cab would recieve 250w (at max), which would be fine and wouldn't hurt the 12" any. But what about phase cancellation, or any other problem. Also, what about a 210 instead, or a 115, or a 212? I'd like to hear more comments on all this.
 
#45
No P.A. support?

You'll need a bass rig of 2 8x10s and 1,000 watts minimum. I'm serious. Outdoors sucks up bass like you wouldn't believe. Even with a rig that size the bass beyond about 50 feet from the stage is likely to be very disappointing.
 
#47
jaywa said:
No P.A. support?

You'll need a bass rig of 2 8x10s and 1,000 watts minimum. I'm serious. Outdoors sucks up bass like you wouldn't believe. Even with a rig that size the bass beyond about 50 feet from the stage is likely to be very disappointing.
Click to expand...

I dunnow - outdoors takes some serious amplification fer sure - but there are oddities in acoustics that seem to violate logic and slide-rule sound engineering.

We never put any of the guitars or my bass through a PA - the vocals and a keyboard, yes - but we run only on stand-alone gear.

I can hit downtown (1 mile away) with some thump and I'm usually running at 600 Watts and a pair of 410s.

We've had people from downtown drive around trying to home in on the sound of a live band - so we know we are making the trip.

Now I know the sound quality at that range isn't good - but it still carries all that distance.

There aren't any major tree stands or barriers in the way though as it's all open cultivated fields as the bird flies - so that may mean something too.

We also play a Barnyard BBQ several times a Summer and it's 40+ acres and we can pretty well saturate the whole area - but yeah - the sound is somewhat directional and tends to beam in one direction better than any other.

We did a King-O-The-Hill gig out here once that put us on top of a 400 foot higher elevation than the small valley below us and talk about sonic saturation!

We just swamped the whole place - but yeah, acoustics are sometimes unpredictable.

What I notice is that at the volume and power we run, that my 810 alongside a pair of 410s stacked, works well and I cannot hear any problems with combing or wave interference at all.

Maybe enough power just makes comb filtering disappear.
 
#48
Don't forget the most important thing: Tylenol/Advil/Your headache pain killer of choice and earplugs even if you don't think you'll want to use them.

Without PA support you are going to likely push some serious air around behind you. Last time I did anything like that I had to nearly hit the on stage pain threshold with the rented house rig... (it was some dual 8x10 rig powered by an SWR head)... The sound man that day only had Mics for vocals so with everyone else, he "conducted" and instructed us each on how loud to turn up.

I swear, I thought for sure I was going to pass out a few times it was so f'ing loud.
 
#49
billfitzmaurice said:
With or without, same difference. Indoors you have 6dB of boundary gain from the wall behind you. Outdoors you don't have that wall, so you need another 6dB of output to make up for that. Adding a second identical cab gets you that 6dB. If your amp can't drive a second cab due to impedance issues then you'd need a second amp to drive the second cab.
The exception would be if your normal setup has 6dB or more excess output capability when used indoors; if it does that means you're schlepping twice the cab size you need to be.
Click to expand...

Can't comment on your 6db except to say that you seem to be making unstated assumptions about the outdoor environment.

In my experience outdoor gigs always sound thin and you tend to use volume and / or pushing the lows harder as compensation. Therefore you want more headroom. Much less scientific than your version :-)

If PA support is there then my amp is a stage monitor only, the onstage volume goes down.

Of course PA support changes things indoors too, but nowadays most of what I do is not all that loud and the bass amp is a large part of foh sound.
 
#50
I am playing my first gig in a month which will be at an outdoor party with ~400 people. slightly elevated and overlooking the ocean so nothing will be reflected back.

I thought I'd be OK but now I'm not sure, would a MB 210 combo driving a Schroeder 1012 do it? I've heard people compare each to a 410 but it seems every cab ever talked about on the internet compares to a 410. You see guys in the Radio Shack forums talking about their clock radios comparing to 410s.

Will I really be pumping a pair of virtual 410s up there?
 
#51
I know no one can tell me what to get. It all depends on so many factors. I must evaluate what my gigs will be like and choose wisely. But, I don't wanna make a mistake. Don't wanna come up short. Yet, the more I carry anything out the door the more I want it to be as lightweight as possible.

Got my MB 121H out of the trunk of my wife's car (yep, she goes with me a lot) and noticed that if it were six inches wider it would be getting close. Then, I imagined it weighing 5-10 more pounds and thought about how I'm not gonna get any younger. Things hurt nowadays (gettin' old ain't for sissies).

My little combo is a godsend to put out what it does to be so light and loud. And the fact is, I probably won't be playing any stages where PA support isn't there. The biggest thing on the books right now is the Peach Festival. It's a very large venue and normally has thousands in attendance, but 200-300 right at the seating for this one stage. (There are two or three other stages). But there will be big PA there. Last time we even played through the headliner's set-up. So, even on that stage, the two 112 cabs might get enough in my ear for me to hear myself ok. We run a tad of bass through the monitors, too, so that helps. The only prob with this band is the stage eq of everyting. They always want the kick to be too deep, and too loud. I get covered up easily. Of course, I always raise a fuss about it. My other band doesn't have that problem, everything sounds great onstage. But there's PA support there, too. I reckon my days of big cabs is over. Heh, heh, except at the Blues Shack where I get to play my friend's V4 through an SVT 8x10. Too bad it's indoors in a small room.:bassist:
 
#52
Example: to cover 200-300 people (guitar players using 50 Watt amps), drums into the PA just slightly, 300Watts with 2 cabs can do it (pushed a little). I would recommend more watts and cabs with more speakers if you can. The rule of thumb that I use is twice the power and speaker area that I would use indoors at the same volume.
 
#53
On those big stage festival gigs with good PA support, just make sure you have enough amp and cabs for you, and (hopefully) your nearest bandmates to hear yourself well without straining the rig. For me, this would equate to a rig that would hold its own in a large club without FOH support.

Bottom line, a 200w 210 ain't the answer, but my G III and 700RB II gets the job done, and sometimes, I'll add a second cab just for grins (& confidence). :cool:
 
#54
Well, I'd be at 500w with the 121H cab added to my 121H combo. They're the same size, virtually. I've played the 121H combo with the festival band many times before, but mostly indoors, but always with PA support. It does ok if the drums aren't too loud in the stage mix.

If this doesn't work I will have to start all over with a separate head and different cabs, and then I will be ducking the broom my wife will be swinging at me for a LONG time. We just got our state tax refund, and it will foot the bill, ...AND she is willing to let me spend the $500 for the 121H cab now. Sheesh, actually, I guess I have to decide if I'm gonna be playing much for big, loud gigs. Not much...unless something big happens, but it's not like I'm trying to "make it" anymore. Been there, sorta, now I'm more relaxed. Heck, at 61 sometimes I wonder how much longer I can do this at all.

No, no, I didn't say that. I'll probably die onstage, though, on an F#, LOL.:smug:
 
#55
fingerbun said:
Can't comment on your 6db except to say that you seem to be making unstated assumptions about the outdoor environment.
.
Click to expand...
I never assume anything. Look up spatial loading, specifically half-space (cab on the floor/ground) versus quarter-space (cab on the floor within 1/4 wavelength of a rear wall). It's true that most of the output lost with no rear wall is below 250Hz, but so is 75% of the power demand on the speakers and amp, and if your rig is on the edge indoors it's not going to cut it outdoors.
 
#56
billfitzmaurice said:
I never assume anything. Look up spatial loading, specifically half-space (cab on the floor/ground) versus quarter-space (cab on the floor within 1/4 wavelength of a rear wall). It's true that most of the output lost with no rear wall is below 250Hz, but so is 75% of the power demand on the speakers and amp, and if your rig is on the edge indoors it's not going to cut it outdoors.
Click to expand...

So by that definition is a gig in an enclosed courtyard - ie with a rear wall - indoors or outdoors?

What if you are on the verandah of a building playing into a courtyard with a cliff face on the other side, etc.
 
#57
fingerbun said:
So by that definition is a gig in an enclosed courtyard - ie with a rear wall - indoors or outdoors?

What if you are on the verandah of a building playing into a courtyard with a cliff face on the other side, etc.
Click to expand...
If the wall is of solid construction, at least 1 wavelength in dimension, and the cab baffle is less than one quarter wavelength away from it you'll get quarter-space loading.
 

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